Raising Writers, Training Thinkers with Andrew Pudewa

Are you a homeschool parent wondering how to teach writing effectively, to help your child become a better communicator, and to train them to think deeply? In today’s conversation with Andrew Pudewa, founder of the Institute for Excellence in Writing (IEW), we explore practical strategies for developing clear thinking, strong writing skills, and confident communication in your homeschool. Are you struggling with reluctant writers, unsure when to start formal writing instruction, or want to understand the connection between writing and critical thinking? This episode is sure to be both encouraging and actionable!

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Thinking Begins with Language

In the opening section of our conversation, Andrew Pudewa tackled the modern crisis of non-thinking with insight rooted in classical wisdom. Reflecting on a quote by Francis Bacon—“Reading maketh a full man, speaking a ready man, and writing an exact man”—Andrew emphasized the foundational role of language in forming thought. This idea ought to take center stage: by cultivating the arts of listening, speaking, reading, and writing, we ultimately equip students to think clearly and deeply.

Andrew pointed out that many children today struggle with writing or even forming coherent thoughts simply because they lack the language tools necessary for expression. Without a rich vocabulary, literary exposure, and general knowledge—what he calls the “input”—students cannot produce thoughtful “output.” He stressed the importance of reading aloud to children, building their internal database of words, ideas, and syntactical patterns. This immersive engagement with language not only nurtures imagination but also lays the groundwork for critical thinking and clear communication.

Andrew elaborated that true thinking isn’t just a spontaneous act—it’s the result of accumulated knowledge and language. He observed that when students say things like “I don’t know what to write” or produce shallow, empty work, it’s often because they don’t yet have the words or ideas to express deeper thoughts. You can only think a thought if you have the words to think it in, he explained. That’s why building up a child’s vocabulary, general knowledge, and literary experience is so vital. Engaging regularly with rich language—through listening, reading, and speaking—provides the raw material needed for meaningful thinking and learning to take place.

How to Nurture Excellent Thinking Skills in Students

Andrew Pudewa emphasizes that excellent thinking skills are cultivated through habits of conversation, curiosity, and comparison. Drawing from Francis Bacon’s idea that “conference makes a ready man,” he explains that the act of speaking—especially in thoughtful dialogue—requires children to recall information, make connections, and consider causes and consequences. He encourages homeschool parents to regularly ask open-ended questions like “Why did this happen?” or “What does this remind you of?” rather than jumping to provide answers, thereby fostering logical reasoning and analogical thinking. Tools like comparing unlike things, engaging in family debates, reading literature with rich metaphors, and appreciating poetry and even memes can all sharpen a student’s ability to make inferences and think critically. Ultimately, literature—particularly classic children’s books and poetry—can gently lead children into informal logic by stimulating their imagination and sense of discovery.

In addition to Socratic dialogue, comparison, and poetry, Andrew Pudewa emphasizes the value of cultivating informal logic through great literature. Classic children’s books, like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, subtly train the mind by setting up questions and allowing readers to infer answers, fostering joy in discovery. He explains that authors like C.S. Lewis and Roald Dahl guide children into logical thinking almost imperceptibly, helping them build critical reasoning skills without formal instruction. This reinforces the idea that rich language, thoughtful stories, and purposeful conversations at home can create an environment where excellent thinking naturally flourishes.

The Connection Between Writing and Critical Thinking

We explore the vital connection between writing and critical thinking. Pudewa emphasizes that writing refines thought because it demands precision and intentionality—unlike spoken words, which are ephemeral, written words can be reviewed and revised. He explains how writing helps children align their internal images and ideas with accurate vocabulary, particularly when supported by tools like group brainstorming, thesauruses, and guided vocabulary exercises. Amy adds that freewriting and word games can make this process enjoyable, though Pudewa cautions that group activities may better support reluctant writers. He also highlights the value of adults reading children’s writing aloud to help them develop objectivity and editing skills. Finally, Pudewa introduces the classical tools of invention (division, comparison, analysis, and synthesis) as a framework for helping students explore topics deeply, moving beyond surface-level writing to more thoughtful, logical expression.

1. Writing as a Tool for Precision in Thought

Andrew Pudewa emphasized that writing cultivates critical thinking by forcing the writer to evaluate the clarity and accuracy of their ideas. Unlike spoken words, which vanish once said, written words remain and can be refined. This permanence encourages students to reread and revise their writing, prompting questions like, “Does this clearly express what I meant?” As students work to align their words with their mental images, they begin to internalize habits of careful, logical thinking—skills that are foundational to clear communication and critical analysis.

2. Vocabulary as a Gateway to Better Thinking

An expansive vocabulary allows students to choose the most accurate words for their ideas, which improves both their thinking and writing. Pudewa shared that when children are given access to rich language—whether through tools like a thesaurus, word lists, or group brainstorming exercises—they become more confident and expressive. Exposure to a broader vocabulary can act like a “brain expander,” enabling children to convey their ideas with more precision and depth, which in turn helps them think more precisely.

3. Group Writing as a Confidence Builder

While free writing or individual brainstorming can be helpful, Pudewa cautioned that such activities can sometimes discourage children who struggle to generate ideas quickly. Group activities—like brainstorming vocabulary on a whiteboard—help level the playing field. In a group setting, even students who contribute just one or two words can feel successful. This collaborative approach allows stronger writers to model language for others and reduces the pressure on those who find writing more challenging, fostering both skill growth and enjoyment.

4. The Power of Reading Aloud

Reading a child’s writing aloud—especially when done by someone else—offers a powerful tool for reflection and revision. Pudewa pointed out that children often hear their writing differently when someone else reads it. This external perspective helps them identify unclear or awkward phrases they might overlook when reading silently. He also noted that around ages 11–13, children begin to develop the objectivity needed to assess their own work more critically, making this an ideal time to introduce read-aloud editing as part of the writing process.

5. Cultivating Invention Through Division and Exploration

To help children overcome the “blank page” problem, Pudewa recommends teaching simple rhetorical tools like division—the process of breaking a big topic into smaller parts. For example, if a student wants to write about the beach, prompting them to brainstorm categories like “things to see,” “things to do,” or “problems and solutions” activates their thinking and makes the task more manageable. This approach draws from classical tools of invention and encourages students to ask good questions, explore ideas deeply, and think logically—skills that will benefit them across all areas of learning.

Teaching writing in your homeschool doesn’t have to be overwhelming. As Andrew Pudewa reminds us, writing is more than just mechanics. Writing is a tool for thinking clearly and communicating effectively. By focusing on modeling, listening, and gradual skill-building, we can raise competent communicators who think deeply and express themselves with confidence.

Key Takeaways

• Clear Writing Equals Clear Thinking
  Writing forces students to clarify their thoughts. Because written words are visible and permanent, they invite revision and refinement in a way that spoken words do not, naturally cultivating critical thinking.
• Writing Should Follow Reading and Listening
  Children need to absorb a large amount of well-structured language through listening and reading before being expected to produce original writing. Output should come after sufficient input, just as in language acquisition.
• Rich Vocabulary Fuels Precise Expression
  Helping students develop a broad vocabulary through tools like word lists, group brainstorming, and exposure to rich language gives them the building blocks they need for clear thinking and writing.
• Avoid Asking for Too Much Original Content Too Soon
  Expecting young students to come up with both the ideas and the words can overwhelm them. Start by allowing them to imitate structure and content before asking them to generate original thoughts.
• Classical Invention Tools Are Surprisingly Accessible
  Tools like “division” (breaking a topic into parts) and “comparison” can be introduced even to younger students as scaffolding for idea generation. These classical rhetoric tools help children think more deeply and systematically.
• Group Brainstorming Builds Confidence and Skill
  Collaborative vocabulary generation or topic exploration in a group setting allows students to benefit from each other’s ideas, reduces pressure, and encourages participation from even reluctant writers.
• Reading Writing Aloud Aids in Revision
  Having someone else read a student’s writing out loud helps the student hear it with fresh ears and identify areas for improvement. Around age 12, students often develop the maturity to revise their own writing more effectively.
• Writing Is More Than a Mechanical Skill
  Writing instruction should not be limited to grammar and punctuation; it’s a vehicle for cultivating deep, critical, and logical thinking. When taught well, writing shapes how students view and interact with the world.
• The Goal Is Competent, Confident Communicators
  Rather than raising professional writers, the aim should be to raise individuals who can communicate thoughtfully and effectively in both spoken and written forms.
• You Don’t Have to Teach Writing Alone
  Homeschool parents are not expected to do everything themselves. Using resources like writing programs, video lessons, or tutors can provide structure and support, especially if writing isn’t a parent’s strength.

Listen to the full podcast episode “Raising Writers, Training Thinkers with Andrew Pudewa” on  Homeschool Conversations with Humility and Doxology

Andrew Pudewa is the founder and director of the Institute for Excellence in Writing and a father of seven. Traveling and speaking around the world, he addresses issues related to teaching, writing, thinking, spelling, and music with clarity, insight, practical experience, and humor. His seminars for parents, students, and teachers have helped transform many a reluctant writer and have equipped educators with powerful tools to dramatically improve students’ skills.

Find Andrew Pudewa online

• iew.com

You may also enjoy:

• The Joy of Writing: Millie Florence and Beyond Mulberry Glen
• Words, Words, Words: Why (and How) to Teach Writing
• Reading, Writing, and Making Connections: Homeschooling High School English (with Betsy Farquhar)
• Strategies for Teaching Homeschool Writing (with Janie B. Cheaney)
• Outsourcing Homeschool Writing: IF and WHEN to hire a writing tutor or join a writing class
• Knowing by Heart: the Powerful Beauty of Memory Work (with Andrew Pudewa)
• Wisdom, Truth, and Cultural Discernment with Dr. Carl Trueman

Check out all the other interviews in my Homeschool Conversations series!

Amy Sloan: Hello, friends. Today I am joined by Andrew Pudewa. I’m sure not a stranger to many of you, but if he is new to you, Andrew is the founder and director of the Institute of Excellence in Writing and a father of seven. Traveling and speaking around the world, he addresses issues related to teaching, writing, thinking, spelling, and music with clarity, insight, practical experience, and humor. His seminars for parents, students, and teachers have helped transform many a reluctant writer and have equipped educators with powerful tools to dramatically improve their students’ skills. He is also a previous guest here on Homeschool Conversations. I’m delighted to chat with you again. Since people can go back and listen to that previous episode for a kind of more personal introduction here, I thought today we’d just jump right in with some questions. What do you think? Sounds good. Well, I’m sure you, like our family, are familiar with The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. It’s one of our favorite books to read as a family, and we often will quote the professor’s famous line, you know, logic, why don’t they teach logic in these schools? And that’s certainly as relevant now as it was when Lewis wrote those words. But sometimes I almost just think we need to go more basic, like why don’t they teach thinking in these schools? So I would like to hear from you. What are some ways that you kind of see this as an issue in the modern era, and do you see various skills involved in thinking that they’ve kind of deteriorated? What are your kind of thoughts about that?

Andrew Pudewa: Yeah, so recently I’ve been pondering a quote from Francis Bacon in his essay on studies, and it’s a very elegant quote. He said that reading maketh a full man, speaking a ready man, and writing an exact man. And that resonates a lot with what we do at IEW, because we say we, you know, we teach the arts of language, listening, speaking, reading, writing, and then the result is thinking. And so if we were to kind of look at the problem of non-thinking, if you want to call it that, of today’s world, and I think every generation has complained about the previous one, and every century thinks they’re better than the previous one, and certainly there have been times where luminary people have shown phenomenal thinking, and I would guess there’s always been a good contingent of people who find it just to be too much trouble, and will either ignore it or outsource it. But there’s two sides of it, and I think Bacon hit that, that we have to have input, right? We have to have things that build our memory and our imagination and our knowledge base, because without that, output and the proof of thinking is not possible. I mean, the output, the speaking and writing part is really kind of the proof of the thinking, or facilitates the process of clarifying the thinking. So a good chunk of my talking to people, and I honestly don’t remember what we talked about last time, but I tend to push pretty hard, especially parents with, you know, school-aged children, and that, you know, you’ve got to get it in there, you’ve got to build the vocabulary, you’ve got to build the syntax, you’ve got to have the inherent grammar, you’ve got to have the general knowledge, you’ve got to have the literary sense, you’ve got to have this experience of language that really forms your capacity to use language to think. And I would guess this idea came to me a long, long, long time ago when I was face-to-face with a group of kids who would say things like, I don’t know what to write, or I can’t think of anything, or they would write something and it would be just miserably empty and bad and and un-useful, and then you think, okay, how can I get them to do better than this? And I realized you can only express an idea, and by extension, you can only think a thought, that you have the words to think it in. And so with this reading aloud to kids, and other people have kind of hopped on this bandwagon, much to my delight, Sarah McKenzie and some of our other outspoken homeschool podcast blogger types have really pushed this idea of reading in huge quantity to kids, and then getting from that, hopefully, a desire for them to read, and a desire not just to read for amusement, but the desire to read hard things, to read things that are going to stretch them, that might actually send them to a dictionary. Although I know a few children who have even touched a dictionary, but dictionary.com, I don’t care what you use, but engaging in that more kind of strenuous level of reading, I think is critical if you’re going to get to a more effective mode of thinking. So that would be step one, the input.

Amy Sloan: You know, it’s interesting, because actually our previous conversation was all about beautiful memory work, and the value of that, and that’s something I am passionate about, and I’ve seen in my own family. And as you were speaking, I was thinking about that, you know, aphorism, thoughts untangle themselves over the point of a pen, you know. But if you don’t have something to think about first, then there’s nothing really to untangle, right? And so just thinking about how that relates to the things we read, the things we memorize, the things we contemplate, and how that thought comes first before we’re able to then communicate it. But I wonder, you know, we’ve mentioned already reading, memory work, things like this, but what are some ways that we can really nurture these critical thinking skills in our children, in our students, especially as homeschooling parents?

Andrew Pudewa: Yeah, so the second part of Bacon’s quote is speaking, or I think what he said was conference makes a ready person, right? So when you are engaged in a conversation, someone asks you a question, you have to immediately go find something in the memory that was put there somehow, in some way, and attach it to the question at hand. And that’s where logic comes in. So causal relationships are very important, and we see a lot of people in politics may suggest something, but they don’t have the habit of thinking what were the causes of the problem they’re trying to solve, and what might be the consequences of the action that they might take. And that’s a habit that I think we can cultivate in children. They have a problem. Rather than tell them what to do to make it go away, perhaps we should get the habit of asking, how did this come to happen? Why is this situation the way it is? What do you notice or remember? Because we can’t generally come up with good solutions to things unless we can understand the causes, to some degree, to some degree. A lot of kids, you know, they’re kind of default to, I don’t know, because that’s what they’re used to saying when they don’t want to have to think, right? But I think we can push this a little bit, and through kind of a daily use of a little bit of Socratic dialogue in life, create this habit of looking for causes, thinking about possible consequences, and connecting ideas. One very important tool that reading provides for us is the ability to compare things. If you’ve taught writing at all, or you’ve been taught writing, you generally have teachers say, simile, metaphor, look for that, use that. And of course, when we read the great books, whether they’re easier to read great books like Line the Witch in the Wardrobe, or much more sophisticated content, or the great classics that go back thousands of years, we see that authors have this particular aptitude for helping you understand something by comparing it with something else. And so this activity of comparing two things and saying, what is, what are the similarities between these two things? What are the differences between two things? Or here’s something, can you think of anything that this is like in some way? And the more I’ve been at this, the more I realize you really can compare any two things, any two even totally random things. You could look at them and say, you know, here’s a pen, there’s a cloud. What are some similarities between pens and clouds? And, you know, at first it’s a little bit hard because they are pretty weird, but you might come up with a few things. They make shapes. They both contain liquidish substances. They can go through the air, especially if you throw your, you know, and you can come up. But that skill of comparison is really one of the very valuable ones, I think. And it exists in that nexus between literature and speaking and writing. The more good comparisons we’ve read, and sometimes it’s even just semi-conscious or subconscious. The author will use a good metaphor or a good simile, and you don’t stop and say, ooh, that’s a good simile, but it gets in there. And if you read the thing more than once, or maybe you hear a very similar one, then that becomes accessible and you are now ready to make a similar comparison. And that helps us understand all things better. So that tool of comparison is something I think we should keep in our parenting repertoire. And when we’re talking to kids, say, that’s really interesting. What does that remind you of? Can you think of anything like that or similar to that in some way? And then don’t expect a fast answer, right? You’ve probably met a person who’s thoughtful and they have somehow avoided our modern compulsion to say things as quickly as we can, right? So we have this habit that you ask me a question, and if I don’t start talking in about four seconds or less, it becomes very uncomfortable. I find it interesting to observe people who are willing to wait until they’ve formulated their idea before saying that. Jordan Peterson comes to mind, if you’ve ever listened to him in an interview. Elon Musk will do this too. I’m trying to think of people that people would know.

Amy Sloan: My husband is very good at that. And it’s really important then as the listener to make sure you give that space and don’t pop in with your own ideas. There’s something beautiful in that silence of waiting while there’s a thoughtfulness at work. I really admire that about my husband for sure.

Andrew Pudewa: Hopefully your children will be comfortable to kind of imitate that. And I know as a teacher, I have found myself impatient. I’ll ask a question and I want an answer because the time is ticking. I’ve got things to do. Or you just take the first answer the first kid gives you and move on. And then everyone kind of defaults their thinking saying, well, I won’t have to answer this. Someone else will. Which is why, you know, Socratic discussion generally happens best in small groups. Actually, the family is the best place to learn this. And having kind of a family debate every now and then. Throw out a subject. You know, why should people have dogs? You know, something that little kids can relate to. And then actually work on the pros and the cons. And that gets them thinking about causes and consequences. It gets them thinking about what’s similar or different. And just that habit of having that engaged conversation I think is huge. I think that is so far more valuable than most parents, even most homeschooling parents, really understand.

Amy Sloan: That’s really helpful. And as you were speaking about the importance of teaching that sort of comparison, being able to compare things, especially perhaps things that we wouldn’t immediately see a similarity between, but seeing how they’re alike, seeing how they’re different. Actually, what came to mind first to me was, oh, oh, poetry, poetry. I mean, this is one of my hobby horses. I send my email subscribers a poem every Monday. We include a lot of poetry in our family morning time. But I think poetry does this so well. It teaches you that kind of analogical thinking where in a very condensed space, right, a poet basically describes something as if it’s something else. I mean, that’s kind of an essential part of poetry. And so including poetry regularly in what you read and study I think helps train the mind to think kind of metaphorically, symbolically, to see these analogies and these comparisons maybe in a way that other literature, well, I wouldn’t say it can’t do it, but it doesn’t do it so succinctly.

Andrew Pudewa: No, I would agree. And a lot of kids think they don’t like poetry unless it’s silly or funny. And I think it’s okay to use humorous and delightful kinds of poetry to draw children in. But yes, the poets will force the reader to make inferences. And that’s a tremendously good habit to look at a situation and see it and then on your own ask questions. Why is that the way it was? Why did he say that the way he did? What would happen if that’s the kind of thing the poet is pushing towards? You know, I’ve been fascinated with the popularity of memes, right? And I enjoy memes a lot. And what’s interesting about memes is that it requires some kind of additional information in order for it to have an effect on you. In order for it to be funny, you have to know something. If you see a meme and you say, I don’t even think that’s funny. I don’t get it. I don’t get it. Basically, you’re lacking a bit of information. And I don’t know when the term came into popular use. Certainly, I think for me, I became aware of it just in the last 15 years or so. And now, of course, everybody talks about memes. But getting into logic, see, there’s a logical construction called an nth meme, which is where you have a premise, two premises and a conclusion, but you’re missing a part of it. So an example of this would be premise one. The test is on Tuesday. Premise two. Today is Tuesday. You don’t really have to say the conclusion because your mind jumps to, oh, the test is today. And so a well-constructed rhetorical argument will very often do this. It will have these nth memes embedded. And then the listener feels very clever for having figured out what you were trying to say, not necessarily even thinking that you were trying to lead them to that conclusion. And the good authors do this very well, too. I was reading a book to grandchildren, which I hadn’t read for a long, long, long, long, long time, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory by Roald Dahl. And I was struck by the brilliance of the author in that he would set up something and then there’d be kind of a pause, a natural break, a paragraph or a section or a chapter. And the kids would ask a question at that moment. And then the very next sentence would answer the question. It was as though he understood how to set up, how to pique the curiosity of the of the child listening to the story and and and give that pause and then give the answer. And most of the time the kids would be like, I knew that. And so there’s this tremendous joy in discovery and knowing things. And this is why I think we revere these great children’s authors. It’s not easy to do. It is not easy to write that way. And so that would be moving children into kind of an informal logic. And and so I would look to literature, the good, the great, the classic children’s literature as the best introduction into informal logic. C.S. Lewis being right in there and then the irony of the professor saying, why don’t they teach logic in schools anymore?

Amy Sloan: So we’ve talked a little bit about the importance of having something to think about, right? So what we’re putting into our children’s minds, training them to see similarities, comparisons, reading the great literature. What role do you see writing playing in this development of thinking skills? And how can we effectively guide our children in that area as we’re helping train them in thinking truthfully and logically? Yeah

Andrew Pudewa:. So Bacon’s quote, writing makes an exact person. It is echoed kind of today. One of the things Jordan Peterson words he will use is that writing refines your thinking. So when you say something, it’s said, it’s done. You move on in a conversation. You move on in a presentation. The debate round goes. You can’t really do anything about what you already did because it’s gone. But when you write a sentence or you write a paragraph, you should have the habit of reading what you wrote and then always having the question, is that accurately representing what I’m trying to communicate here? Now, for kids, this is usually things happening in stories. And the way they think about writing stories is what happened, what happened next, what happened next, what happened next, what happened. And they’re creating a little movie in their imagination. And then they’re trying to get that movie into words. And they may come up with a sentence that approximates the image that they have. But again, if they have an abundant vocabulary, they might read it, look at the word and realize there’s a better word that I could use right here. Or this idea would be clearer if I if I put a period and started a new sentence. Or this would be clearer if I added in a word to connect the two ideas, a clausal connector or conjunction or something. And so when they write something the first time, it’s kind of an approximation of what they’re imagining. Then they read what they wrote. And sometimes it’s funny, they will read it and get a slightly different image than what they started with. Right. And then they’re going to say, OK, but what I really want to show here, what I really want to say, it needs a different word. It needs a different way. And that’s where they then can rely on both their own vocabulary, which hopefully is, you know, developing and well developing, continue to develop, but also tools like, you know, a thesaurus or a book like a word right now that we sell or a mom handy. And what’s another word for? And I find that when I’m teaching groups of children writing that group brainstorming of vocabulary and getting a whole long list of of, you know, whether it’s L.Y. words or strong verbs or quality adjectives or whatever, getting those words out in front of the children is like a brain expander because immediately they have access to a word that might not have been in their active vocabulary, but it’s in their passive vocabulary. They recognize it. They say that’s a better word for what I’m trying to do here. They can pull it and the word pops off the board into their eyes, through their brain and out their fingers into their paper. And they’re able to more accurately reflect the image that they have created. And that is a great joy. And that’s where you start to see kids say this is they may not say it to you because they don’t want to admit, but they will experience this is fun. This is enjoyable. This is an enriching experience to be able to do this.

Amy Sloan: In past years, I’ve done like free writing exercises with my kids where I would like, well, I did different versions of this, but a most simplest form would be like, all right, everybody set a timer. Five minutes. Here’s the prompt. Just start writing words down on a page. It could be a story. It could be a thought. It could just be like random things that come to mind. And the idea was to kind of get past that idea of having to write something perfect and to kind of play with words. And I’m imagining that would actually be a really fun thing a homeschool family could do with a wide range of ages, like around the lunch table or in a morning time, like, okay, mom’s going to set a timer for three minutes. Let’s see how many synonyms for run or said we can think of. And just everybody write down as many as they can think of. And then it’s kind of like a game. It’s not like school, but you’re training them to think a little bit differently about their vocabulary.

Andrew Pudewa: Yeah. I would suggest that there is a little bit of a danger in that you might have one or more kids who just don’t do well at that. And they don’t get much on paper and they look at their sister and think, oh, she can do this, but I can’t. Whereas if you did it in a group on a whiteboard, then everybody can throw in their two bits. Some people can throw in 20 words and someone else maybe only two, but then it’s a group success and you would minimize the danger of one of the kids thinking, I can’t think of anything and start to dislike it. So that I find group writing has that kind of effect of you can kind of steal from the rich and give to the poor a little bit. And then in terms of story starters and things like that, it varies widely. Some kids would really take to that and others would just be dead in the water. So again, putting them in teams would be a way where the ones that might not be as naturally or immediately creative could work together and throw in an idea, see that idea, make it in onto the paper, but they wouldn’t be cut off from a source of help or support that way.

Amy Sloan: Oh, yeah. That’s a really great tip. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Andrew Pudewa: No, I was just going to continue on this a little bit more about getting kids to the point where they really want to read what they wrote and be sure that it is as close to what they’re trying to accomplish as possible. Sometimes it’s hard for them to do that. And so one of the things I have suggested is that you read aloud to the child the thing they wrote and then you can use the nuance of expression to help them realize whether something is clear or not so clear. You can comment, you can even ask a question along the way, and then you give it back to them and they’ve got a little more to work with. Whereas, well, you’ve done writing, Amy, so you know it is hard to edit yourself. You wrote something, you look at it, it made sense when you wrote it, it still makes sense. You give it to someone else and they may say, well, I don’t quite get what you’re trying to say here. When you’re like, but it’s so clear. Yes, my problem is what’s your problem? My response is, well, what’s your problem? But I’ve noticed that with children, when you read to them what they wrote, they hear it in a different way, a little more objective way than if they just look at the thing that they wrote. And I think that starts to work really well around the age of 11, 12, 13, where they’re in that zone, you know, between whatever they write, you’re happy with it, it’s creative. And then that pushing toward adulthood objectivity that you’re trying to cultivate. So, you know, a lot of people have said, how come you don’t have the kids read out loud papers in your class? And I say, because I want to read it to them. I want them to hear me read it. And if they read it, they won’t hear it the same way. So that’s another thought.

Amy Sloan: Yeah, that’s interesting. I’ve always encouraged my kids to read their own work aloud as part of their editing process. But I’ve never thought of how that would come across differently if someone else was reading it, or especially, you know, if I were reading it, was able to kind of use that as an opportunity to help them in that thinking and editing process. Yeah.

Andrew Pudewa: Yeah. And you can try it. The other thing is, if I got a group of kids and I read their paper, I will actually be able to read their paper aloud to the group better than they would. That makes their paper sound better. And so they like that. And so that’s a couple thoughts. You know, if we were to look also at the tools of invention, right, as I teach them kind of in a simplified, these could go all the way back to Aristotle’s Common Topics, but a simplified version for kids would be, there’s an acronym that I used in teaching this, DC at Sunrise. So DCAS or DCAS. Division, Comparison, which we talked about, Analysis and Synthesis. So with division, you would say, okay, here’s the big subject. Now, what are some things about aspects of topics pertaining to elements of that thing? This is really one of the most basic skills that you can help kids have. And so they want to write about basketball. Okay. So the first thing you do is try to come up with some possible topics. What are some things about aspects of topics pertaining to elements of basketball? Then they immediately start to go places in their mind. And the word topic is from the Greek topooi, which means place. We get our word topographical map from that same root, topooi. So the topic is the places you can go to explore something. And I have many, many times seen kids that were just, okay, write about the beach, write about your dog, write about your favorite thing to do, write about your friend. And they’re just dead. The beach is a really fun place to be. I really, really like the beach.

Amy Sloan: There’s some sand.

Andrew Pudewa: Be there. Okay. But now start division, right? Things you can do at the beach, things you see at the beach, things you hear at the beach, problems with the beach, solution to those problems. You get into those divisions and questions and immediately that invention process activates. And I would go back to where you started with the quote from Lewis’s book, why don’t they teach logic in schools? I think what we’ve seen over the hundred years or so, isn’t that they don’t teach logic per se, although they don’t, and it has been eliminated from the curriculum. More insidious is that the whole culture of education shifted from let’s learn how to ask good questions together, to here’s all the information you need to know from the textbook. I’m going to give it to you. We’ll massage it around a little bit and call that, you know, homework and study. Then I’m going to give you the questions. If you answer the questions correctly, you win the game. If you answer the question incorrectly, you lose the game. If you refuse to answer the questions, we’ll kick you out. You’ll have to go to some special treatment facility somewhere. But if you become a person who asks questions yourself, that’s not just irritating, that could be dangerous to the whole system. So we look at kind of the modern conveyor belt, you know, industrialized model of education that started up in the late 18, early 1900s. And it really has been a shift from how to ask good questions to knowing all the answers to the questions someone else is going to ask you.

Amy Sloan: That’s a really good and important thing to think about. And I’m thankful as homeschool parents we have an opportunity to do something differently with our own children. It can be a safe place to ask questions and make connections and ask difficult questions, right? And to not always know the answer.

Andrew Pudewa: That’s okay too, right? The best questions are not easy to answer. And some of them people have been working on for millennia. It is interesting though, because as more and more people are coming into the homeschooling, and I might say by extension, the alternative education world, you know, classical charter schools, hybrid schools, there’s a shift that’s happening. And you will meet people who aren’t homeschooling, don’t know much about it, but they’ll interact with a kid and they will guess, that kid’s homeschooled, isn’t he? How did you know? Well, because the conversation had a quality to it that is not readily available in the general population of kids that go to school all the time.

Amy Sloan: Yeah. Andrew, here at the end, I want to ask you the questions that I ask all of my guests before we close. So the first is just, what are you personally reading lately? And I’m very curious, because the last time we chatted, I think you were reading a book that was like, telling you to stop eating cheese or something. So I want to know, what are you reading now?

Andrew Pudewa: Well, I do eat cheese, but I select it carefully. So the nonfiction book that I just finished was called The End of the World is Just the Beginning. And who wrote it? I know who wrote it, because I listened to his podcast. But it’s really kind of a frightening book, I will say that. Peter Zeehan, Z-E-I-H-A-N. He basically goes through the demographics of every country, the economics of every country, the geopolitical circumstances in the world, the changes that are happening. And by the end of it, you’re pretty much convinced that things are going to collapse sooner rather than later. The supply chains are going to break apart, the population collapse in some of the very major countries like China, South Korea, and Japan, and parts of Europe is going to decimate the economies, the debt bomb is exploding. But of course, I’ve been thinking this is going to happen any day now for 10 years. So but it was a very interesting book from a being aware of the reality of the world our kids are growing up in. And, you know, half of being ready for major change is being able to imagine what you might do in that situation. So it had benefit from there. But I will warn everybody, it’s a pretty bleak book, and he has to stretch himself pretty far to find the silver lining on the clouds. One silver lining is if you live in the United States, you’re probably better off than almost anywhere else in the world. And he’s got a lot of reasons for that. But then I thought I got to shift over to something much more useful. So I picked up and started the book called Indistractable. And this is a book about how do you be efficient and focused and productive in a world that is designed to continuously distract you in every possible way. So it’s a little bit, intersects a little bit with James Clare’s book Atomic Habits and that one. The last fiction book I read was truly a delight. And I want to get the author here. So hold on for a second.

Amy Sloan: While you’re looking that up, I’ll just say I will recommend, again, to go back to what I said earlier, I will recommend poetry as an antidote to fear about the end of the world or wondering how to approach potential collapse. One of the poems we love to memorize in our family and recite a lot is Death Be Not Proud by John Donne. And I’ve said this before, but the day I was in the emergency room, the day my son received his leukemia diagnosis, that was the poem that came to mind. And I had always told my kids, I’m not going to teach you a lot of facts, but I’m going to teach you a lot of poems because one day you’re going to be in hard times and those are going to be good to know. And I was like, oh yeah, I was true. I didn’t know I was hiding it in my heart for myself.

Andrew Pudewa: But yeah, so more poetry. Yeah. So this book is very poetic. It’s just full of literary allusions and it’s a rich, lovely story about a middle-aged woman who’s been taking care of her brother, a farmer, and she decides she needs some adventure in her life. And this was written, I think it was set right around when cars started to exist.

Amy Sloan: Is it Parnassus on Wheels? Yes. You know that book? I love that book. Yes. So good.

Andrew Pudewa: Isn’t it awesome? Yeah. Who was the author? Christopher…

Amy Sloan: Morley, I believe.

Andrew Pudewa: Morley. M-O-R-L-E-Y. Morley. Yeah. So yeah, I just, that was a delightful book and it was just a real relief. It was a relaxing book. I had previously read East of Eden by John Steinbeck, which is really a hard, hard, hard book. It’s just painful. And the redemption, you have to slog through a tremendous amount of unhappiness before you get to the redemptive part of the book. And I’m glad I did. And it gave me a completely new respect for Steinbeck, which most of us have to read some Steinbeck when we’re in high school or college or something, but that just goes in and out. You don’t think about it. East of Eden took me into some very deep levels of contemplation, but I needed something light. So Parnassus on Wheels, I would recommend it to anyone. And the other books I’ve been reading, I’ve actually spent more time reading to grandchildren than I have reading on my own. And so I love Charlie and Chocolate Factory, got James and the Giant Peach right off. And my particular grandchildren I have access to right now really seem to like historical fiction a lot. And so we’ve been reading stories of medieval knights and crusaders and a lot of stuff in that 13, 14, 1500s period, Adam of the Road, Door in the Wall. And so I like that because I learned a little bit more about historical periods when I read historical fiction, even if it’s aimed at kids. And so what have you been reading yourself?

Amy Sloan: Oh, let’s see. Well, I just started a book called, I’m looking at here, Loving Your Adult Children by Gay Clark. So my oldest has recently moved out. I’m kind of shifting into this mothering of adult children as well as still having some young ones. And then just for fun, I always return to Georgette Higher when I need a little lighthearted brain relief from reality. So that has also been on my bedside table recently. How do you spell that last name, Higher? H-E-Y-E-R. She was an early 20th century writer. So I kind of think of them as if like Jane Austen in Woodhouse had a baby, like a little bit. But actually my favorite are her mysteries. I really enjoy her mysteries that are kind of reminiscent of an Agatha Christie, just with a little bit more of a bite with the dialogue. Very witty. Good. Well, I’ll check into

Andrew Pudewa: that. I’m not familiar with Heyer, so I’ll look into it.

Amy Sloan: Well, I would start with the blunt instrument. Start with blunt instrument as a mystery there. Okay. You have a little twist, just like an Agatha Christie twist.

Well, Andrew, this has been lovely as always. Where can people find you all around the internet? Well

Andrew Pudewa:, IEW.com, starting place. YouTube channel, search IEW, search Andrew Poudoi. That’s there. I know I have an Instagram page, one for the company, one for myself, but I don’t spend much time looking around. So I’m not even sure what my actual name is, but I do have a very unique name, pretty easy to find. So Poudoi, P-U-D-E-W-A, and we have a lot of free lessons available. So if people wanted to just taste our writing or our spelling or our poetry or our grammar programs, any of that, they can go to IEW.com slash free hyphen lessons and then choose something and download it and just give it a shot, watch the video, whatever. And it may be, oh, that resonates with my student, my kids. Let’s try more of that. So we try to make it as easy as possible for people to try what we’ve got.

Amy Sloan: Fabulous. And I will have links to all of those things in the show notes for this episode over at humilityanddoxology.com. I would love it if you would take a minute to leave a rating and review in your podcast app wherever you’re listening and share this episode with a friend you think would be encouraged. And, Andrew, until next time, I hope you have a wonderful rest of your year reading with grandchildren and on your own and exploring words and thought. So thanks again for chatting today.

Andrew Pudewa: Thank you, Amy. It’s been a delight.