Wisdom, Truth, and Cultural Discernment with Dr. Carl Trueman

Wisdom, Truth, and Cultural Discernment with Dr. Carl Trueman
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In a time when timeless truths are often questioned or redefined, Christian educators must remain rooted in Scripture, engaging with contemporary issues while maintaining humility and wisdom. Dr. Carl Trueman’s reflections on truth, humility, and thinking biblically in today’s world offer essential guidance for those seeking to teach with faithfulness and discernment. This conversation dives into the importance of staying grounded in biblical doctrine, even as we face the ever-changing landscape of our postmodern world.

Wisdom, Truth, and Cultural Discernment with Dr. Carl Trueman Homeschool Conversations with Humility and Doxology podcast

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What Does It Mean to Be Human

Dr. Carl Trueman and I discuss the profound cultural shifts challenging fundamental concepts like identity, gender, and the nature of humanity itself. Dr. Trueman identifies these changes as part of a broader redefinition of what it means to be human, tracing the roots of these ideas to historical philosophical and theological debates. He references C.S. Lewis’s The Abolition of Man to underscore how modern culture increasingly prioritizes psychological and spiritual notions of self over the material and physical body. This shift, Dr. Trueman notes, finds its antecedents in Gnosticism, where the physical body was often downplayed in favor of the metaphysical.

Dr. Trueman further explains how technology has accelerated and reshaped these ideas. From facilitating virtual interactions that diminish the importance of physical presence to enabling medical procedures that challenge biological realities, technology has contributed to the belief that humanity can redefine itself at will. He cautions against assuming these issues are entirely modern, emphasizing their historical roots, while also highlighting the unique role of technology in fueling today’s rapid and pervasive cultural transformations. The discussion encourages parents to critically engage with these ideologies and teach their children timeless truths in a shifting world.

Navigating Unbiblical Presuppositions in the Church

We explore how even Christians striving for Biblical faithfulness can inadvertently absorb unbiblical assumptions from the surrounding culture. Dr. Trueman emphasizes that the challenge of engaging faithfully with the broader culture is not a new one— Christians have always wrestled with living as members of both the “city of God” and the “city of man.” He highlights Augustine’s framework, which encourages believers to navigate life as citizens of both realms while remaining faithful to Christ and serving their neighbors.

Dr. Trueman identifies two key areas where cultural assumptions can subtly infiltrate the church. First, the tension between online and real-life interactions presents challenges for pastors and church communities. He stresses the importance of ensuring technology serves rather than dominates the church’s mission. Second, he observes a modern disdain for history, which can undermine Christianity’s historic foundations. While Christians should treasure the truths of historical liturgies and hymns, Dr. Trueman warns against romanticizing the past for its own sake. We recapture the liturgies and teachings of historic Christianity because they’re true, not because they’re old. “Sentimental antiquarianism…isn’t really a recovery of classical Christian doctrine and life for the present.”

history discernment education Wisdom, Truth, and Cultural Discernment with Dr. Carl Trueman

A Faithful Approach to History: Acknowledging Complexity Without Cynicism

A Biblical Perspective on History

Trueman emphasizes the importance of a biblical anthropology in understanding history. He explains that human actions are invariably tainted by sin, and this truth must inform how we evaluate historical figures and events. Acknowledging human depravity prevents the hagiographical treatment of historical heroes, which is not only inaccurate but also undermines the credibility of Christian perspectives when flaws are inevitably revealed. This understanding provides a balanced framework, avoiding both cynicism and idealization.

The Role of Common Grace

Alongside acknowledging human sinfulness, Trueman highlights the doctrine of common grace as a counterbalance. While human motivations and actions are often mixed, they can still result in good outcomes. For instance, Trueman, citing Derrick Bell, uses the example of the Supreme Court case Brown v. Board of Education to demonstrate that positive actions can stem from imperfect or self-serving motives. This approach helps Christians avoid the extremes of either dismissing historical accomplishments or attributing undue purity to their origins.

Complexity in Human Strengths and Weaknesses

Trueman discusses how the strengths of historical figures often correlate with their flaws. For example, Martin Luther’s boldness enabled him to defy the Holy Roman Empire but also led to harmful actions and writings. This duality serves as a lesson in self-awareness: understanding that one’s strengths, if unchecked, can become weaknesses. This nuanced perspective enriches historical study by allowing for moral reflection without needing to whitewash or vilify historical figures.

Education Rooted in Humility

There is value in teaching history with humility, recognizing the flaws and humanity in great historical figures as a mirror of our own. This is an important part of my vision of education—centered on humility and doxology. Trueman concurs, adding that history’s complexities provide opportunities to draw moral lessons without oversimplifying or idolizing. He encourages educators to embrace history’s messiness as a tool for growth, reflection, and moral guidance.

christianity historic religion Wisdom, Truth, and Cultural Discernment with Dr. Carl Trueman

The Value of Church History for Protestant Christians

Studying church history, particularly pre-Reformation history, offers Protestants a profound opportunity to understand their faith’s roots and the ongoing story of Christ’s Church. Despite concerns that exploring early church history could lead some away from Protestantism, Dr. Carl Trueman highlights why an ignorance of history can actually make individuals more vulnerable to such shifts. Instead of being wary of church history, Protestant Christians should embrace it as a rich and foundational resource.

He points out that the Reformers themselves, such as Luther, Calvin, and others, deeply engaged with church history, especially the works of early figures like Augustine. For them, the Reformation was not about creating something entirely new but recovering and clarifying the truth within the historical church. This perspective underscores the importance of studying the church’s broader narrative, which helps us appreciate our shared heritage and faith while discerning truth from error.

Additionally, there are excellent resources available today, including books by Simonetta Carr and Linda Finlayson, that make church history accessible and engaging for families and children. Far from being a danger, church history equips Christians to understand their identity within the great story of God’s work throughout the centuries.

anthropology Wisdom, Truth, and Cultural Discernment with Dr. Carl Trueman

Rethinking the Classical Approach: Should Christian Educators View the Greeks and Romans Differently?

In response to concerns about the classical Christian education movement’s idealization of Greek and Roman civilizations, Dr. Carl Trueman offers a nuanced perspective. He acknowledges the undeniable brilliance and cultural influence of classical works but cautions against viewing them uncritically.

Dr. Trueman shares his experience as a classicist, pointing out that Greek and Roman texts, including myths and plays, often contain graphic, idolatrous, and morally questionable content. Simply labeling something “classical” does not exempt it from critical evaluation. Education, especially within a Christian framework, is not just about transmitting knowledge but also about cultivating discernment.

He highlights the importance of balancing appreciation for the intellectual achievements of ancient civilizations with a recognition of their moral and cultural flaws. For Christian educators, this means teaching students to thoughtfully engage with classical works—acknowledging their historical significance while evaluating them through a biblical lens. The goal is not to dismiss the Greeks and Romans but to approach their legacy with a discerning and grounded perspective.

A Renaissance in Theology: The Recovery of the Classical Doctrine of God

Dr. Carl Trueman highlights a shift in modern reformed evangelical theological education regarding the classical doctrine of God. While 10 years ago, this area was neglected, recent years have seen a revival. For historical reasons, Protestant theology often prioritized the doctrine of Scripture, leaving the doctrine of God underexplored for nearly two centuries.

However, a renewed interest in classical theism—rooted in the works of early church theologians like Augustine—has emerged. Scholars such as Lewis Ayres and Khaled Anatolios have contributed significantly to this renaissance. Dr. Trueman observes that theological education is increasingly emphasizing the classical doctrine of God, recognizing its foundational importance for a coherent and robust faith.

This recovery extends beyond academia to influence church teaching as well. Institutions like Grove City College have integrated classical theism and Christology into their biblical studies programs, ensuring that students grapple with these essential doctrines. As Dr. Trueman notes, a firm grasp of the classical doctrine of God is critical for maintaining theological integrity and avoiding doctrinal missteps.

From Seminary to Undergraduate Teaching: Dr. Carl Trueman’s Perspective

Dr. Carl Trueman shares insights into his teaching journey, having taught both seminary students and undergraduates. Early in his career, he taught undergraduates at the University of Nottingham and the University of Aberdeen before transitioning to Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia in 2001. Since 2018, he has been teaching at Grove City College.

Key Differences Between Seminary and College Teaching

At the seminary level, students typically arrive with a strong foundation in their beliefs and seek to refine their understanding and arguments. In contrast, undergraduate teaching often involves guiding students as they form their intellectual and spiritual identities. At Grove City College, this is a “battle for the minds,” but one marked by curiosity and respect, as students grapple with complex questions about faith, culture, and theology.

Transition and Motivation

Dr. Trueman describes his move to undergraduate teaching as a return to his roots. He finds immense satisfaction in helping young people think deeply and independently about foundational issues. He notes the particular challenges this generation faces, such as navigating technology and social media, but expresses optimism about their potential and dedication to truth.

Encouraging Trends

Dr. Trueman is encouraged by the rising generation’s interest in classical liturgy and theology. Many students, despite coming from broad evangelical backgrounds, are drawn to traditions that emphasize historical continuity and biblical truth, such as the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA). This reflects a broader trend of young Christians seeking depth and connection to historical expressions of faith.

For Dr. Trueman, teaching at Grove City College has been immensely rewarding, offering the opportunity to witness students’ intellectual and spiritual growth firsthand.

technology Wisdom, Truth, and Cultural Discernment with Dr. Carl Trueman

Living and teaching in a postmodern world requires humility, a willingness to question the cultural norms, and a commitment to thinking biblically. Dr. Trueman’s insights remind us that, as Christian educators, our role is not simply to convey knowledge but to help students wrestle with the deeper truths of Scripture while navigating the complexities of today’s society. By approaching our work with humility and a steadfast focus on biblical principles, we can equip the next generation to think critically, live faithfully, and respond to the cultural shifts with grace and conviction. The task may be challenging, but it is one that is essential for raising a generation that understands both the gospel and the world they live in.

Key Takeaways

  • Discernment is essential in education:
    Education isn’t just about imparting facts but teaching students to critically engage with the past and present, understanding both the value and limitations of classical works.
  • The classical tradition requires critical engagement:
    While the Greek and Roman traditions have influenced Western civilization, their myths and philosophies should not be accepted uncritically—students must be taught to think carefully about their content and implications.
  • The classical doctrine of God is undergoing a revival:
    There has been a recent resurgence in interest around classical theism and the doctrine of God, particularly in reformed evangelical circles, with a growing appreciation for ancient church teachings.
  • Postmodern cultural shifts challenge Christian educators:
    Navigating cultural shifts in the postmodern world can be difficult, especially with rising concerns over the effects of technology and social media on young people.
  • The importance of church history for grounding faith:
    Reading and reflecting on church history, particularly the works of the early church fathers, is crucial for grounding faith in fundamental truths and avoiding modern pitfalls.
  • Cultural shifts impact Christian educators:
    In the face of increasing cultural confusion, Dr. Trueman encourages Christian educators to remain humble and grounded in timeless Biblical truth, acknowledging their own limitations and continually striving for wisdom.

Listen to the full podcast episode “Wisdom, Truth, and Cultural Discernment with Dr. Carl Trueman” on  Homeschool Conversations with Humility and Doxology

Dr. Carl Trueman taught on the faculties of the Universities of Nottingham and Aberdeen before moving to the United States in 2001 to teach at Westminster Theological Seminary in Pennsylvania. In 2017-2018 he was the William E. Simon Visiting Fellow in Religion and Public Life in the James Madison Program at Princeton University.  Since 2018, he has served as a professor at Grove City College. He is also a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center and a contributing editor at First Things. Trueman is the author of the bestselling book The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self. He is married with two adult children and is ordained in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

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Check out all the other interviews in my Homeschool Conversations series!

Amy Sloan: Dr. Truman, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast. I’m really looking forward to our conversation.

Carl Trueman: It’s a great pleasure to be here, Amy. Thanks for having me on.

Amy Sloan: Well, here at the beginning, I’m just going to dive in and ask you this question that I know many people will want to hear your answer about. I don’t think anyone would argue or disagree that there have been some seismic shifts culturally just in assumptions, the things that many people just assume to be true, the presuppositions, and they even seem to be coming at a faster rate to the point where even such fundamental terms as male and female now seem to be up for debate or unable to be defined. I think as parents, it can be tricky because we feel like one, we’re trying to figure things out ourselves, make sure we understand what’s going on. Then we have the added responsibility of communicating to our children what is true and helping them to be discerning as they hear things coming at them a mile a minute. But I wanted to ask what you see as some of these ideologies, these shifts, these assumptions that are most prevalent perhaps now in our current age. I know they didn’t just show up suddenly, so where did they come from and how have we arrived where we are today?

Carl Trueman: Sure, that’s a very good question, huge question in a lot of ways. It’s difficult to answer in any simple, straightforward, or concise fashion, but I would just put a couple of things out there to get listeners’ minds thinking about these issues. First of all, I think one might characterize the broad changes that are taking place within our culture as a fundamental transformation in the question of what it means to be human. I think C.S. Lewis puts his finger on something very important in his book, The Abolition of Man, where he really sees there that it’s the notion of humanity that is under challenge. He’s not the only person seeing that in the 1940s, there are others as well, but I think he makes a very important point that it’s humanity, the very notion of what it means to be human that is being challenged. Where we see that manifesting itself most dramatically in our culture, at the moment would be say on issues of sexuality and even more so on questions of gender. What is the appropriate sexual use of the body? Does my body have any authority over who I actually am? Of which the question, what is a woman? That statement, I’m a woman trapped in a man’s body would be perhaps the most popular or most obvious examples. I think one thing we need to remember though, when we’re thinking where does this come from? Some of these ideas have been around for an awful long time. One could make the case that the body has been a problem. The body has almost been a problem for as long as Christianity has been around. When we look back to the early church, you have these movements that we now gather together under the rubric of Gnosticism. One of the things that the various Gnostic groups have in common is they downplay the importance of the material and therefore the physical body, and emphasize instead the psychological or the spiritual dimensions of what it means to be human. That’s not changed. The reasons for finding the body to be problematic have changed over time, but the body has always been somewhat problematic in the way of thinking about the self. What’s made the difference today, I think, is technology. We now have technologies that, one, make the body less important. I mean, we are speaking over Zoom at this point. Twenty years ago, to record this, we’d have needed to have sat in the same room. We’d have needed to be bodily presences to each other as we’re doing this. And it’s not a bad thing that we can do this, of course, but it helps shift how we think about the importance of the body. We think of the body as less important today because we don’t need bodily presence as much. And I also think when it comes to something like the trans issue, why can we believe that a man can become a woman or a woman can become a man? Because we believe that technology gives us that power. We’re able to gerrymander our bodies in a way that we think would allow us, as a man, to become a woman or a woman to become a man. Of course, it’s absolutely impossible. You’d have to replace every single cell in the human body in order to achieve that. And then you wouldn’t have the same person. You’d just have a completely different person as a result. But that’s not the point. The point is that technology allows us to imagine that we can do that. And that, I think, fuels a lot of the great changes that we’re witnessing at this point.

Amy Sloan: I appreciate you bringing up the Gnostics as well. And we could even go back to their great grandfather, Plato. These are not new ideas, these questions about who is man, what is his chief end, one might even say. But who are we? Why are we here, right? I think sometimes there can be this assumption that, oh, if we can only get, I don’t know, some people say like the 1950s. I’m like, we need to get way farther back than that. But, you know, oh, if we can only just go back to this idealized time in the past when it was all, you know, everyone understood what was true. And that, I think, really misses the point about some of these more fundamental questions. So I appreciate you just like bringing up this is not some new thing. It’s just coming, I guess, it’s being exposed or revealed in a different way, would you say, maybe?

Carl Trueman: Yes. And again, also, one has to acknowledge that technology is not a wholly bad thing, but far from it. I don’t want to live in the 15th century because I wouldn’t want to live in an era where a relatively minor, what would now be a relatively minor surgical procedure would be extremely painful because of no anesthetics and extremely dangerous because of no antibiotics. Technology is neither good nor bad on that front. But like all things, all phenomena, it brings both positives and negatives, advantages and risks. And I think one of the things that we have not been good at doing in our current day is understanding the risks. We’re very much in that mindset that if we can do it, why shouldn’t we do it? And that, I think, is a problematic attitude.

Amy Sloan: Well, I see even within the church itself, because we are, you know, even those of us who are trying to be purposefully anti-cultural or just biblical and be truthful in our thinking, we do live in the world where we live and in our time. We can’t possibly completely escape it. So where there’s some maybe assumptions or presuppositions that even within the church, maybe you see us having just sort of, we’re operationally living those untruthful things. And how do you see that playing out in the church?

Carl Trueman: Yeah, I think it’s an interesting question. Of course, again, we can relativize the question by saying that we don’t face a question that Christians haven’t always faced. And the question is, how does the church as a sort of pilgrim community within the wider culture, how does it relate to that wider culture? And it’s not an easy question to answer. You know, some want to completely withdraw. Some want to turn the culture into effectively a function of the church. And I think neither of those options are practical. I think Augustine is the man who sets us on the right track when he’s thinking about, you know, there’s the city of God and there’s the city of man. And the city of man changes over time. But we’re all, in a sense, citizens of both cities. We have to live in both cities. So the question for Christians is, how do I negotiate my life such that I’m faithful to Christ in the times I’ve been placed, while yet also fulfilling my duties to my neighbours and my neighbourhood and my community? And that’s not an easy question to answer. I think one of the ways that the church, one thing that the church has got to think about, and I’ve been puzzling over this for a few months now, but don’t really have any answers, is, you know, how do we, how do we balance online life with real life? You know, how do, how do pastors, pastor people who are living their lives online, how do we make sure that we are using online technology and that it is not using us in some way? So that would be one aspect. I think we live, another aspect of the culture in which we live in, I think is often, I would describe as a very anti-historical age, that we tend to be forward-looking. We tend to see history, if anything, as a tale of oppression and somehow less enlightened and more problematic than the present. And yet Christianity is a historic religion. It’s historic, both in terms of its revelation, God reveals himself through the history of Old Testament Israel and then on into the church of the New Testament. And the gospel has been passed down, is handed on through history. God does not invent the gospel every Sunday. How do we reflect that in our church life? Again, you know, there’s a temptation on the other side there. We can say, well, we need to recapture the great liturgies of the past or the great hymns of the past. And that’s certainly true, I think. But we recapture them because they’re true, not because they’re old. And I think there can be a tendency in some conservative Christian circles to think, well, the older is automatically the better. And we can end up indulging in a kind of sentimental antiquarianism, which isn’t really a recovery of classical Christian doctrine and life for the present. So I would say, you know, a couple of fronts there, there are things we need to think about.

Amy Sloan: Yeah, and it’s interesting because one of the things that I had really struggled to articulate, like, kind of clearly and simply, both to others that I’m having conversations with, sometimes to my own children, you know, children, they ask me these questions and they expect me to just give them a cut and dry, simple answer. And sometimes the answer is a lot more complicated. So trying to explain it to them can be difficult. But one of these things, when it comes to history in particular, is we see, if we just take an honest look at the history of the world from Genesis on, from, you know, Cain’s first murder, we see examples of injustice, oppression, evil, right, at its most basic level, even in our own, all the way up to our own country’s history. And so these are realities of things that we notice as we study history. And yet, in the modern kind of paradigm, it seems that oppression and injustice is like the thing that defines the entire personality of one’s worldview, right? And so we don’t want to accept that ideology either. But then, like you were saying about Christians kind of becoming this romanticized antiquarian, as opposed to really thinking about truth, in homeschool circles, sometimes I then see dishonest approaches to history or people who are so concerned to reject the modern error that they refuse to even acknowledge that, you know, a historical character could be criticized or they want to kind of hide from those harder parts of history. So anyway, this is sort of a long story to just sort of get to a question of how do we as Christians, you know, acknowledge the evil that has been perpetrated without becoming cynical and not ascribing to this whole kind of Hegelian point of view?

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Carl Trueman: Yeah, well, there’s a sense in which I think Hegel has some things to commend him actually on that front, in that I think one of the things he does is, you know, he emphasized we need to, you do need to look at things historically. We do need to judge each era and each epoch by the standards of the time to some extent. And that can allow us to avoid becoming very pharisaical and self-righteous about the past. But I would say, on the whole, what one needs to, of course, is from a Christian perspective, have two fundamental foundations to a Christian view of history. One of them is, I think, a biblical anthropology. And secondly, an understanding of what we reform, we call common grace. I think you have a biblical anthropology, then you realize that all human acts are going to be tainted at some level. And that really cuts us off from the kind of approach to history that you spoke about at the end there, where, you know, criticism of any great historical hero is off limits because they’re stuck. Actually, in doing that, you’re playing straight into the hands of those who want to make the opposite case and damn all of history, because it’s very clear from a biblical anthropological perspective that history is the history of a sinful fallen people. And trying to exculpate our own chosen heroes from original sin just isn’t going to work. And somebody who does the digging is going to come up with something that just blows that that hagiography out of the water. So we need a realistic anthropology that understands that the depravity is a fundamental part of all of us and is a fundamental factor in history. On the other hand, we also need, I think, an understanding of common grace, that depravity is not the only thing. And I would take as an example, you know, you think about critical race theory and critical, Derrick Bell, leading critical race theorist, his writings on Brown v. Board of Education, which is the very important Supreme Court judgment in the early 1950s that paves the way for desegregation and ultimately for the Civil Rights Act, all these things. And Derrick Bell, in his take on that, would say, you know, it’s gone down in history as the moment that America sort of realizes there’s a race problem and kind of solves it. I’m putting it a bit simplistically here, but there’s a lot of cheerleading surrounding Brown v. Board of Education. And then he demonstrates that, no, actually, Brown v. Board of Education, the decision was a lot more complicated than that. There are a lot of issues at play, not all of which, in fact, in Derrick Bell’s view, almost none of which are actually praiseworthy. And I want to say, well, if you have a hagiographical view of Brown v. Board of Education, then your theory is going to fall apart as soon as you start looking at some of the stuff that Derrick Bell starts citing. On the other hand, Derrick Bell is kind of guilty of the opposite problem. Just because somebody does the right thing out of wrong or mixed motives doesn’t mean it wasn’t the right thing. You know, if the man standing on the seashore who sees the person drowning doesn’t swim out to save them because he’s worried that when he makes the front page of the news, it’s going to make him conceited and maybe he’s saving them because he wants to be a local hero. I think all of us would say in that situation, look, pal, worry about your motives later. Just get out and save that person. That’s the right thing to do. Go back and confess your sin of pride after you’ve done it. And I think as Christians, we need to think of history in those terms. Yeah, our heroes are flawed. George, we think George Whitefield, great evangelist of the 18th century. But the significant evidence that he kind of enjoyed the public attention that he got from being a field evangelist, and more than that, the significant evidence that he terribly badly treated his wife. Does that mean that his ministry was evil or worthless? Absolutely not. But it certainly doesn’t mean that when I teach a class on George Whitefield at Grove City College, I’m going to say, hey, if you’ve got a ministry like Whitefield, you can treat your wife like a piece of garbage. I’m not going to draw that lesson from it either. I think as Christians, we need always to look through that biblical, anthropological lens of man created, fallen and redeemed in order to tease out the complexities of human motivation and action within history.

Amy Sloan: Having that root of a solid theology and anthropology, like who God is and then who man is, it really does fundamentally shift the way you think about really any subject, right? It’s difficult to come to any subject, history, politics, what have you, and just try to interpret from those facts, using the word facts light loosely, apart from truly understanding that pattern of creation, fall, and redemption and all of that. So I think that’s really a helpful reminder. And it gives us humility, right? And I think especially thinking about as a homeschool parent, an educator, really wanting humility to be a huge part of my children’s education. Humility and doxology, those are not just words. That’s what I believe is the end of education. And part of that is recognizing yourself in some of those great men and women of the past who also were highly flawed. We want to think that we can go do great things, do great things for God, do great things for culture, and somehow avoid the trap of our own sin. And so it’s good for us to remind ourselves, to remind our children the story of Peter, right? You know, oh, if everyone forsakes you, I won’t, right? And then that is the place of weakness. So I think that can be a lesson from taking that perspective on history as well.

Carl Trueman: Yeah. I mean, think of the example of Martin Luther. I’ve just been teaching this church history section on Luther the last few weeks. You know, Luther writes a terrible book in 1525, calling for violence against the peasants. He writes a terrible book in 1543, calling for violence against the Jews. One of the things I try to get the students to realize there is, you know, Luther, only Luther, only a man with Luther’s personality could achieve the great things he achieved. Only a man who is very strong headed and convinced of his own rightness could stand at the Diode of Worms and, you know, face down the might of the Holy Roman Empire. Danger of that is, of course, when you’ve got that, you know, it’s a little bit like the little girl in the rhyme, you know, when he was good, he was very, very good. We might say of Luther, when he was bad, he was horrid. But you can’t have the strong man of Worms without the risk of the vile man of the harsh book against the peasants and on the Jews and their lies. And one of the lessons I draw from that for students is this, you know, be aware of your own strengths and realize that your strengths can actually be your weaknesses as well in certain contexts. Make sure you use your strengths for good and be aware of the way they make you vulnerable in terms of when it comes to evil. Some people like to be warm and affirming about this, and that’s a great thing when you meet that person who needs encouragement. On the other hand, that can be a real weakness when you meet that person who needs a rebuke, but your instincts are to affirm. So I think there are all kinds of ways one can approach history to draw, you know, moral lessons from without having to present the person as, hey, he’s a morally perfect paradigm, just go off and do what he does. History is more complicated than that, but that doesn’t make it less useful, I think, as a moral tool. Yeah.

Amy Sloan: Well, while we’re talking about history and Martin Luther Church history, I wanted to get what your response would be. I recently had a reader push back, sent me an email actually, push back on my recommendation to study church history. And she said that in her experience, the study of church history led to people becoming Catholic, and so Protestants should only study the Reformation on and the Bible. And so I replied to her there a little bit with some of my perspective. But I know you and I are both Protestant Reformed Christians, and we both love church history. In fact, you’ve been a guest on the Kids Talk Church History podcast. Yes. A couple of my daughters are co-hosts over there, and I’m pretty sure at least one of the episodes you did was actually related to like medieval Christianity. I believe it’s all been pre-Reformation. So what would be your sort of response to someone who says church history is dangerous? Why should we, especially as Protestants, want to study all of church history?

Carl Trueman: Yeah, it’s funny. So I’ve got a mug in my office with Cardinal John Henry Newman on it, and a quotation from his essay on the development of doctrine, which says that the quotation is, to be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant. So your writer clearly agrees with John Henry Newman on that one. I would say, first of all, I absolutely, I see the concern, very much so. Yeah, we, that’s, there’s a sense in which, you know, one would not want church history to lead people astray. A couple of things I would say in response to that. First of all, my own experience of teaching students at college, the ones who’ve converted to Catholicism have tended to be the very intelligent ones who grew up in churches where they were never taught church history. And so when they encounter church history for the first time, they don’t really have the categories for knowing what to do with it. Because when they discover that church history didn’t actually begin in 1517, it smells to them like a cover-up. So I would just say that’s anecdotal. It doesn’t have to be that way. But I would say my experience, it’s actually been ignorance of church history that’s made people vulnerable to Catholicism. Secondly, I would say the problem with that is if we want to take the reformers and the Puritans, the 16th, 17th century guys who produced the great confessions that we Protestants subscribe to, if we want to take them as sort of pretty Protestant guys on the whole, they’re pretty normative, they’re very deep in church history. Calvin is always quoting Bernard of Clairvaux, for example, 12th century. They read very widely in church history. For them, the Reformation is a battle over church history. It’s not a battle between the Bible and church history. It’s a battle between the true church history, as they say, the history of true doctrine and doctrine that has been corrupted by the additions of non-biblical and biblical traditions. So I would say to that person, it’s interesting that you’re actually defining Protestantism there in a way that Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Bollinger, Peter Martyr, Martin Buetzer, Thomas Cranmer, Matthew Parker, John Owen, Thomas Goodwin, Thomas Watson, none of these guys would have thought that way. All of them, if you look at their library catalogues, all of them very deeply read in church history because they saw the Reformation as a battle for the true historical church over against the false historical church.

Amy Sloan: Yeah, I think that’s really helpful. That’s one of the reasons why helping my children see that their heritage as a Protestant is not something new, but they’re part of this great heritage of Christ’s church is so important. That’s been something I wanted to make sure they understand, that we didn’t just invent something new in the 16th century.

Carl Trueman: Yes, and there’s some great resources now out there for kids on church history. Simonetta Carr’s work, Linda Finlayson does short biographies of great figures of church history. There’s a lot of good Protestant stuff that deals with medieval figures and early church figures. I mean, I have to say, if you didn’t have Augustine, you would not have Luther and Calvin. Luther and Calvin are doing what? They’re rediscovering Augustine in the 16th century. To an extent, I had a colleague who used to describe, this was way back in a university in the UK, used to describe the Reformation as nothing but a set of footnotes to the works of Saint Augustine. And I think that’s hyperbole, but he was trying to make a point that these reformers, they’re not bypassing history. They see themselves really as, you know, repristinating Augustine for a new generation. Well, that really means you need to know you’re Augustine in order to understand the reformers.

Amy Sloan: Yeah. Well, here, towards the end, I have a few questions from some friends. I mentioned to a couple friends. I was like, oh my goodness, I get to talk to Dr. Truman. What should I ask him? And now, some of the questions were way too controversial. I know we haven’t talked about anything controversial so far, but they were asking me questions like, what’s your favorite cricket team? What is your opinion about Marcus Aurelius? Like, Elihu, is he a hero? Is he a villain? I was like, guys, we can’t bring that to the podcast. That’s too much.

Carl Trueman: I could answer all of those, actually.

Amy Sloan: Oh, yeah, real quick. Give it to me.

Carl Trueman: Marcus Aurelius, not a bad philosopher, not a Christian, but not a bad philosopher. Cricket, I never followed county cricket. I followed national cricket team, England cricket team, of course. And Elihu, I think Elihu gets it right, but doesn’t go far enough. I think Elihu, the God speaks after Elihu tells me that Elihu has not said it all. And I think what Elihu misses as a human being is any human compassion for Job. And I think it’s a reminder to those of us who have a high view of God’s sovereignty that when we talk to people about God’s sovereignty, particularly people who are suffering, we need to remember these are human beings and abstracted doctrine only gets you so far and can sometimes be nothing more than salt in the wound. So there you are.

Amy Sloan: That’s perfect. I love that. I will ask also a few of these further questions. So far away. All right. The first one, friend one, and since this is a specific quote, I’m going to look down so I read it correctly. And she said, given how the Western tradition has bowdlerized the graphic sexual and idolatrous nature of Greek and Roman mythology, should the classical Christian movement in education rethink its starry eyed views on the Greeks and the Romans?

Carl Trueman: That’s a good question. I think that one of the things that’s always puzzled me a bit about the classical education movement is and I declare I’m a big classics guy, the classics, Cambridge, that was my undergraduate degree is, you know, there’s some pretty crazy stuff in classical civilization. I remember going to my first Aristophanes play as an 18 year old and thinking, wow, they thought the woman who taught me was teaching me Greek at the time. If the BBC put this on as a modern play, she’d be writing to complain about it. And here we are sitting in the theater and she’s killing herself laughing at all these risque jokes. I think, as with all educational, you’ve just got to be discerning. I mean, education is is not simply teaching kids about the past. It’s teaching kids to be discerning about the past as well. And I would say I love the Greek myths and the Greek legends. But, you know, just because they’re Greek doesn’t render them above criticism. Doesn’t mean we don’t have to be discerning when we use them. And, you know, having done classics at Cambridge, I can tell I was in a class of about 90 in my my year at Cambridge. I would say classicists get up to the worst and the craziest stuff. Simply studying classics in itself does not make you a moral and upstanding member of the community. And I include myself in that way back then. So, you know, it’s yeah, it’s helpful brain food, but it’s not sufficient in and of itself to to feed the soul.

Amy Sloan: Yeah. So and that goes back to our previous conversation, right? That we don’t just because it’s old and just because it’s been around for a while and just because it’s influenced Western civilization doesn’t necessarily make it good. Right?

Carl Trueman: No, no.

Amy Sloan: Truly good. Yeah. All right. The second question for you from a different friend. How much attention does modern reformed evangelical theological education give to the classical doctrine of God and why?

Carl Trueman: I think it’s it’s getting it’s if you ask me that question 10 years ago, I’d say we’re in a really bad situation for historical reasons. We’ve tended to focus on the doctrine of scripture and there hasn’t been any really good Protestant writing on the doctrine of God for maybe 150, 200 years. But the last 10 years have seen a real renaissance in classical theism, a recovery of the great patristic teaching on the doctrine of God, a rehabilitation of Augustine on the doctrine of God. Some of it’s come from the realm of a pure scholarship. People like Louis Ayres and Karl Anatolios have produced great works on the early church. I think that the real battle of our day is within our own ranks is the doctrine of God and the recovery of the classical doctrine of God. It’s not that the people who deviated from that were bad people necessarily. They didn’t understand the history behind, for example, Westminster Confession of Faith chapter two. And so they misunderstood the terms. And I think we are at a period now where it’s being recaptured and we will see an increasing emphasis on that, both in the educational institutions and in the church. I’ve taught classical doctrine of God and classical Christology at Grove. Thankfully, I now have a colleague, a younger colleague who’s far more competent than me, and he now teaches those courses. But we’re making it an important part of our undergrad in biblical studies that you do the classical doctrine of God and of Christ.

Amy Sloan: That’s really encouraging, because if you can’t start there, you’re going to end up in all sorts of crazy places. That’s fundamental. All right, final question from a friend. And this is, having taught at both the seminary and undergrad levels, what are some of the differences you noticed? What was your motivation to make a change? And what was the transition like?

Carl Trueman: Well, I cut my teeth teaching undergraduates at British University. So I was on the faculty at University of Nottingham, University of Aberdeen. Thoroughly enjoyed that. Moved to Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia in 2001. And enjoyed many, I didn’t enjoy all my years there, enjoyed many of my years there. And then moved to Grove in 2018. I would say the big difference I noticed between undergraduates and postgraduate students, between the college and the seminary, is the seminary, I was, by and large, teaching people who already had a pretty decent idea of what they believed, better arguments for believing what they do. At the college, it’s much more of a battle for the minds. And Grove City College being, you know, not a, not your typical undergraduate college, but somewhat self-selecting in having more conservative and Christian undergraduates. It’s not a battle of minds that involves a lot of hostility. It’s the kind of fun battle of the minds, where you’ve got young people who, for the first time in their lives, are standing intellectually on their own two feet. And they’re trying to work out, do I really believe this stuff? Or do I believe it just because I wanted to please my mum and dad? And it’s helping kids like that think these issues through, and think wider issues, culture through, that I find so incredibly satisfying. So I, I tell people I got the best job I’ve ever had. Now, the transition for me was, it was an easy one. I was going back to my roots in some ways. Thoroughly enjoy teaching young people. And I’m, I think it is harder today to be a young person than it was in my day. I think that the rising generation get a bad rap of snowflakes, etc, etc. I think that’s inappropriate way to talk about them. I think there are a lot of good kids in a rising generation, but it’s a much more complicated world because of technology and social media and everything. And it’s a real pleasure and a privilege to help them think through some of these issues. And to, you know, for example, on classical theism, see their minds being set on fire by some of the old classical doctrines of immutability and impassibility and simplicity. So for me, it’s been a great move. And anybody out there looking for a college to send their kids to, think of Grove, send it to me. I love teaching them, I promise you.

Amy Sloan: Oh, I know just as a parent, especially in those teen years, as you start to see your kids really beginning to think and become their own like unique person, right? They’re not just parroting back what they’ve heard you say or what they hear at church, but asking questions and in a joyful and a respectful way. But like, wait a minute, why do we do this thing in our church? You know, and getting to have those sometimes difficult conversations. Okay. Wow. Let’s like dive in. Christians can disagree about this, but let’s really think about what does the Bible say? What does church history say? You know, and all these things. It’s so exciting. I love the teen years just for that. Like just really seeing their minds come alive and a desire, a real desire to love God rightly and to love him more, I think is really exciting. So I can only imagine it would be even cooler at the college level.

Carl Trueman: It is. And one thing I’ve noticed is a lot of our students, they come from big, broad evangelical churches where they’ve been loved and cared for and pastored well. It’s not a criticism of those churches I’m about to make, but many of them go to Grace Anglican, the ACNA church in Grove. And when I asked them why, they always give two reasons. One, Pastor Ethan’s preaching is great. And Ethan Magnus, the pastor, a good friend of mine, and I could certainly vouch for him as a pastor and a preacher. But the other thing is the recovery of classical liturgy and theology. They love the fact that when they go to church on a Sunday, they’re doing something that’s been done for hundreds of years. And not only that, but where the connection to biblical truth is so obvious. So I think there’s a, I’m greatly encouraged by things that are going on among young people at the moment in the Christian world. Greatly encouraged. Yeah.

Amy Sloan: Well, here at the end, I’m going to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests, and that is just what are you personally reading lately?

Carl Trueman: Oh, I think you’re going to ask me a Beatles or Stones.

Amy Sloan: Oh, you can answer that one too if you want.

Carl Trueman: What am I reading? It’s going to sound horribly pretentious, I’m afraid.

Amy Sloan: That’s okay. I’m here for it.

Carl Trueman: I’ve been rereading all of Dostoevsky’s big novels. So I’m reading Demons again at the moment. That’s the last of the rereads I’ve got to do. And this sounds incredibly pretentious, but for reasons for a book that I’m beginning to build towards doing, I’m reading the catechetical homilies of Cyril of Jerusalem, which are really quite, they’re wonderful for two reasons. One, he sticks a lot of these sort of scurrilous stories about heretics in that I’m pretty sure aren’t true. But, you know, the battle where Simon Magus is riding around Jerusalem in his chariot driven by demons, battling Peter and Paul. There’s some great stories in there. But also it’s just wonderful, straightforward Christian doctrine. And, you know, in an era of political and social turmoil, it’s actually quite nice to go back and read some of the classic stuff from the ancient church that just reminds you of the fundamental truths of the faith. And of course, Cyril of Jerusalem, like all early church fathers, there’s no separation in his mind between his theology and his piety. So it’s this wonderful, you know, it’s this wonderful heart, heart pressing, heart gripping theology that you get. So those are the two books I’m reading. You caught me at a very pretentious moment.

Amy Sloan: No, I love it. Well, I will have to ask you this follow up with Dostoevsky. So my daughter, Emma, that you have interacted with before, loves Crime and Punishment, loves Dostoevsky. Anyway, she has set herself a list of books that she wants to make sure she reads this year. And one of them she just finished, which was Count of Monte Cristo. And she was finding all of these like parallel, like the themes where she was like, this is reminding me so much of Crime and Punishment. So do you think she’s on the right track?

Carl Trueman: She could be. I mean, we know that Dostoevsky was, I don’t know if he read a lot of Dumas, but he certainly read a lot of Dickens. And I always think of Dumas as kind of the French Dickens in terms of they write these serialized novels that have got to be a rip roaring story. Of course, Dostoevsky is far more than a rip roaring story writer, but there are great stories in there. So she could well be onto something. And certainly, I mean, Crime and Punishment is not a revenge story in the way that Count of Monte Cristo is. But seeing how, you know, I’m a big revenge guy. I love stories of revenge. They’re always entertaining. Seeing how he kind of loses all moral compass in his pursuit of his of settling scores. Yeah, there’s certainly a minimum. I think one could say that Dostoevsky and Dumas both have a powerful grasp of the darkness of the human soul. Most definitely.

Amy Sloan: And ideas about like justice and what is true justice. Yeah. OK, that would have to be another podcast here.

Carl Trueman: I’d love to do that.

Amy Sloan: Dr. Truman, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. Can you let people know where they can find you all around the Internet or in person?

Carl Trueman: Well, on the Internet, I never publish anything by myself. It always goes through an editor. So the only places you can really find me on the Internet in terms of writings are First Things, firstthings.com and World Opinions, which I think is wng.org slash opinions. If you look up World Magazine, you’ll find the opinion section. I tend to have something up every couple of weeks at one of those two sites. Other than that, I do a lot of traveling and speaking. So you’ll find videos, clips of me all over the place, I’m sure. But the two big places would be First Things. That’s my first love in many ways for writing and World Opinions.

Amy Sloan: And I will have links to those things and to your books as well in the show notes for this episode at humilityanddoxology.com. Thank you to everyone who is either listening or watching. Please take a moment to share this episode with a homeschool friend you think would find it encouraging, and I will talk to you again soon.


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