Cultivating Discernment and Delight in Children’s Books: A Conversation with Redeemed Reader

In this episode of Homeschool Conversations, I had the joy of welcoming back Betsy Farquhar and Megan Saben, two beloved guests from Redeemed Reader. We dove deep into books, discernment, and how to encourage our kids to love reading without the pressure of grade levels. These thoughtful women share wisdom rooted in years of literary study and real-life homeschool experience.

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Meet Betsy and Megan: Literary Lives and Childhood Favorites

Betsy, now a retired homeschool mom of three, credits The Secret Garden for sparking her lifelong love of nature and storytelling. Megan, mom of five boys, fondly remembers A Little Princess and illustrator Trina Schart Hyman’s work in St. George and the Dragon. Childhood favorites like Calvin and Hobbes, fairy tales, and Magic Elizabeth laid a foundation for both women’s literary journeys.

How Their Journey in Reviewing Children’s Books Began

Megan’s blog idea—Literaritea—sparked from a combination of literature and tea (and a shower epiphany!). A shared passion for children’s books and a life-changing college class led her to invite Betsy to join her. That friendship eventually led both women to become core contributors to Redeemed Reader, which launched in 2011.

Favorite Children’s Authors and Illustrators (New and Old)

Betsy and Megan appreciate a wide range of authors. For Betsy, standouts include Lauren Castillo, John Hendrix, and Macaulay Perkins—Christian writers making an impact in secular publishing spaces. Megan recommends Chris Harris, Johnny Jimison, and Karina Yan Glaser, as well as rediscovered gems like Words by Heart.

They also keep an eye on rising talent like Millie Florence and Rachelle Nelson.

Helping Kids Read with Delight and Discernment

Megan encourages parents not to stress about “grade level.” Her sons didn’t always follow conventional reading paths—but delight was the key. From Elephant and Piggie to Freddy the Pig, finding joy in reading helped her kids learn organically. Megan also uses motif journaling with her family to track recurring themes across books, creating deeper engagement.

Betsy emphasizes modeling a love of reading. “If we are reading with delight and talking about what we read,” it sets the tone for children to follow. Reading isn’t about passing tests—it’s about conversation and connection.

Navigating Messy Content in Children’s Literature

There’s no perfect book list. Betsy reminds us that even the Bible is full of challenging content. So we ask: Why is something included in a story? Is it glorifying sin or prompting deep questions about the human condition?

Books should not be consumed with the brain turned off. Instead, parents can come alongside their children with open eyes and biblical discernment. “No book other than Scripture is inspired,” Betsy says. “So every book is prone to error.”

Megan adds: “Reading only ‘squeaky clean’ books is not an honest reflection of the world.” She challenges us to ask: Does this book help you love your neighbor according to Scripture?

Understanding Truth and Story in Children’s Books

Megan uses a delightful tea analogy: Truth is the drink; Story is the mug. The best reading experiences combine capital-T Truth (biblical truth) with capital-S Story (craftsmanship and beauty). But even lowercase truth and story can offer enjoyment. The goal is thoughtful engagement—not just rejecting books that don’t meet every criteria.

Betsy echoes that we seek the best of both—craftsmanship and truth—wherever they appear, even through common grace in secular stories.

How to Love Your Libraries and Book Neighbors Well

Even when we disagree with library displays or programming, Betsy encourages Christians to engage with kindness. “Build a relationship before you go to war,” she says. Smile at librarians. Request good books. Check them out to boost circulation stats. Respect the needs of the community while living out love of neighbor.

Studying Children’s Literature: Yes, It’s a Real Degree!

Megan and Betsy both hold advanced degrees in children’s literature. A class at Covenant College on truth and story changed the trajectory of their lives. Their studies at Hollins University deepened their understanding of literary theory, illustration, and writing.

Megan loved writing workshops and literary criticism. Betsy was academically stretched in her fantasy literature course and learned firsthand that writing picture books is no easy task.

What They’re Reading Now

Megan recently finished Watership Down (for the second time) and is reading Story as Truth by Madeleine L’Engle. Betsy’s current stack includes The Hunger Games series, The Emerald Mile, and Glory in the Margins by Nikki Grimes. Both women balance review reading with personal enjoyment.

Homeschool Encouragement for Hard Days

When asked for their best tip for turning around a tough homeschool day:

• Betsy recommends prayer, laughter, and a walk or silly book.
• Megan shares wise advice from a mentor: “Love your children, teach them what you can, and lean hard on Jesus.”

Where to Find Betsy and Megan

• Website: Redeemed Reader
• Megan’s Author Site: megansaben.com
• Instagram: @megansabenauthor
• New Book: The Redeemed Reader: Cultivating a Child’s Discernment and Imagination Through Truth and Story (available from Moody Publishers and Amazon)

Key Takeaways

• Literary roots shape lifelong reading habits.
  Childhood favorites like The Secret Garden, A Little Princess, and Cricket Magazine helped spark Betsy and Megan’s enduring love for books.
• Reading for delight leads to discernment.
  Both guests emphasize that joy in reading is the foundation—discernment grows naturally from delight, not drudgery.
• There’s no one-size-fits-all reading journey.
  Kids learn to read at different paces and in different ways. Parents should value the process over rigid benchmarks.
• Messy books can prompt meaningful conversations.
  Older and newer books alike contain challenging content. Instead of avoiding such books, parents can engage their kids in thoughtful, biblically grounded discussions.
• Truth and story work together.
  Using their “tea and mug” analogy, Megan and Betsy explain how capital-T Truth and capital-S Story combine to make a book both meaningful and beautiful.
• Parents must model a love of reading.
  Talking about books, reading aloud, and showing enthusiasm for story and ideas communicates more than any curriculum.
• Libraries and “book neighbors” need gospel-centered kindness.
  Even when public libraries don’t align with our values, we can engage graciously and redemptively, building relationships rather than withdrawing in fear.
• Children’s literature is a serious academic field.
  Both Betsy and Megan studied children’s literature at the graduate level, affirming its depth, artistry, and cultural significance.
• Discernment isn’t about finding “safe” books.
  Books that avoid difficult topics entirely don’t tell the truth either. Instead, ask, “Does this book help you love your neighbor?”
• On hard homeschool days, lead with love and grace.
  Betsy suggests humor and perspective, while Megan offers this wisdom: “Love your children, teach them what you can, and lean hard on Jesus.”

Books Mentioned in the Episode

Books mentioned by Betsy Farquhar

• The Secret Garden by Frances Hodgson Burnett
• George and Martha series by James Marshall
• Frog and Toad series by Arnold Lobel
• Beyond Mulberry Glen by Millie Florence
• Ember Gold by Rachelle Nelson
• (Another book by Rachelle Nelson – not named)
• The Hunger Games series by Suzanne Collins
• Sunrise on the Reaping by Suzanne Collins
• The Emerald Mile by Kevin Fedarko
• Glory in the Margins: Sunday Poems by Nikki Grimes
• The Bible (mentioned in context of listening with Jackie Hill Perry reading)

Books mentioned by Megan Saben

• A Little Princess by Frances Hodgson Burnett
• Magic Elizabeth by Norma Kassirer
• Words by Heart by Ouida Sebestyen
• I’m Just No Good at Rhyming by Chris Harris
• The Dragon Lord Saga (first three books) by Johnny Jimison
• The Vanderbeekers series by Karina Yan Glaser
• Once a Queen by Sarah Arthur
• Once a Castle by Sarah Arthur
• Books by Kate DiCamillo (general mention)
• Books by Jonathan Rogers (general mention)
• Calvin and Hobbes by Bill Watterson
• Freddy the Pig series by Walter R. Brooks
• Elephant and Piggie series by Mo Willems
• Cat in the Hat by Dr. Seuss
• Watership Down by Richard Adams
• The Unlikely Intrusion of Adams Klein by John Greco
• The Rock That Is Higher: Story as Truth by Madeleine L’Engle
• Chronicles of Narnia series by C.S. Lewis (specifically Voyage of the Dawn Treader)
• In the Night Kitchen by Maurice Sendak
• Little House on the Prairie by Laura Ingalls Wilder
• Noah’s Ark – general mention of various picture book adaptations
• Books by Marsha Williams (Caldecott-winning illustrator – general mention)

Book co-authored by Betsy and Megan

• The Redeemed Reader: Cultivating a Child’s Discernment and Imagination Through Truth and Story (Moody Publishers)

You may also enjoy:

• The Great Book List Roundup: Books and Websites to Inspire Your Next Reading Adventure
• Raising Writers, Training Thinkers with Andrew Pudewa
• Joe Sutphin and Kevan Chandler on Friendship, Faith, and Creativity
• The Joy of Writing: Millie Florence and Beyond Mulberry Glen
• Reading for the Love of God with Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson
• Reading, Writing, and Making Connections: Homeschooling High School English (with Betsy Farquhar)
• Strategies for Teaching Homeschool Writing (with Janie B. Cheaney)
• Hop, Skip, and a Rhyme: Listening Well and Delighting in the Beauty of Words (with Megan Andrews)
• Reading and Teaching the Great Books (with Kristen Rudd)
• Identity, Grace, and a Literary Life (video interview with Missy Andrews from Center for Lit)
• Stories, Truth, and the Reading Life (with Megan Saben)

Check out all the other interviews in my Homeschool Conversations series!

Amy Sloan: Hello, friends. I am so delighted to be joined today by two guests. Both actually are repeat guests on their own, but this is the first time they have come together. So I’m going to introduce them to you here at the beginning. Our first guest is Betsy Farquhar. She is the Editor-in-Chief at Redeemed Reader. And when she reads ahead for you, she uses sticky notes instead of book darts and willfully dog ears pages, even in library books. Ah, the shock. Okay, Betsy is a fan of George McDonald, robust book discussions, and the Oxford comma. I have a whole t-shirt devoted to peace, love, and the Oxford comma, so I love that. She lives with her husband and their three children in the beautiful Southeast. Megan Saben is the Chief Creative Officer for Redeemed Reader. She holds master’s degrees in children’s literature and in library and information science and writes picture books, including Something Better Coming and New House, New Home. Something Better Coming is a lovely favorite and has a place on our family bookshelf. Megan enjoys coffee dates with her husband, reading with her boys, and knitting everywhere. She loves sharing her discoveries of truth in story. So there is like the official bio for you both, but here at the beginning, I’m going to let you tell us a little bit about yourself, your family, your literary life, and specifically if there was a particular book or author that you remember from childhood or youth that particularly inspired you. So Betsy, let’s start with you.

Betsy Farquhar: Well, I just graduated. My youngest two of my three, they are twins, my youngest homeschool kids. So as of now, I’m no longer a homeschool mom. It’s kind of weird. My boys are going to join their sister at Covenant College, which is where I went to school, and my husband, and many people that I’m related to, and Megan. When I was a kid, my favorite, favorite book, which is no surprise to anybody who’s been around Redeemed Reader for very long, was The Secret Garden. And I credit that book with kind of igniting just a passion for God’s creation, whether it’s hiking or gardening or digging in the dirt. And so I have my own secret garden, which is very overgrown. So that’s my next plan. In addition to reading books, I’m going to tackle my garden now that I’m no longer a homeschool mom, and I’m going to channel my inner Mary Lennox as I look for plants that are wick or just dead.

Amy Sloan: I love that. My husband actually just finished reading that one aloud to our 13-year-old daughter, and we have this beautiful edition with Tasha Tudor illustrations. So it’s really beautiful. How about you, Megan? Your life, your family, your literary experience.

Megan Saben: Well, I live with my husband and our five boys in Virginia, and yes, I enjoy writing and knitting and all those things. I’m a visual person. So I brought show and tell. Trina Sharpe Hyman was one of my childhood favorites because she was the first illustrator that I learned to recognize. And that was because I was a huge fan of Cricket Magazine back in the day when they were really introducing me to some really good authors. I was a big fan of, I was a fan of Calvin and Hobbes, All of a Kind Family, the Francis books. My favorite Francis Hodgson Burnett book was A Little Princess, but I don’t know what happened to my Tasha Tudor illustrated versions. I’m going to get one. I loved dolls, and so Magic Elizabeth was one that I read over and over and over again. Lois Lenski was a favorite of mine, and I was always into fairy tales. So that was the foundation that the Lord laid in me.

Amy Sloan: Oh, so many good ones there. And that first picture book you held up with the illustrator, that St. George and the Dragon is one of my absolute all-time favorite picture books. I love that one so much. Well, so Megan, you obviously had a background of a wide and varied reading and loving story, but how did you actually start reviewing children’s books?

Megan Saben: Well, when I was first married and had just one little boy and he was still taking naps, I had a shower idea. This word popped into my head, literaritea, and a combination of literature and tea. I thought that it would be a great name for a book review website, and I got on the phone and I called Betsy and I said, Betsy, you’ve got to do this with me. Because she and I had gone through a children’s literature class at Covenant together that was life changing. We had gone through classes at Holland’s University together, and it was just a way to continue the conversation to think about children’s books and to have a place to share the ones that we were enjoying. So that was how we got started. And I’ll let Betsy share how we got into Redeemed Reader.

Amy Sloan: Yes, so Betsy, how did this sort of spilling the tea about literature turn into Redeemed Reader?

Betsy Farquhar: Well, that was in the era of blogs, which seems so old-fashioned now. Those same babies who were taking naps, Megan’s oldest just graduated from high school, so we’ve come a long way. But in the beginning, Megan commented on what was then a Redeemed Reader blog that Emily Witten and Janie Chaney had started. And I just emailed Janie Chaney out of the blue because she was going to be visiting my city for a Shakespeare festival. So I got to know Janie and Emily and Megan kind of made contact through blog comments, and then they asked us to do some guest posts about a year after Redeemed Reader started, which is 20, it started in 2011. We joined in 2012. And very quickly, we became full contributing members.

Amy Sloan: That is amazing. And actually, Janie Chaney is also a previous podcast guest, so I will make sure to put the link to her episode as well in the show notes for this one. So I know that this could go a million directions because, well, we’re going to have to restrain ourselves late, okay? But just a few, a few. What are some of your favorite children’s authors or illustrators? And Betsy, let’s start with you.

Betsy Farquhar: So when I grew up, my mom read to me and my sister. So I remember always loving C.S. Lewis. We loved James Marshall and the George and Martha books, and we loved Frog and Toad and lots of those classics. But I’m just going to shove all those to the side and all on the same page. Current 21st century authors that I greatly respect would include Macaulay Perkins and Daniel Neary and John Hendricks. They are each writing really interesting stories, but they’re Christians writing in secular spaces. And I just respect the work that they’re doing, their ministry. They have some amazing stories of sharing the gospel with the people in the children’s lit world. I love Lauren Castillo’s illustrations. She’s fantastic, kind of an old-fashioned feel, but an up-to-date setting. Frank Morrison, I love his art. Jerry Pinkney. We could go on and on and on. But I do want to throw out two more names of what I think are two up-and-coming authors. I just reviewed Millie Florence’s Beyond Mulberry Glen, which Waxwing Books put out, and it was fabulous. And she’s a teenager, or she wasn’t, but look. And then Rachelle Nelson, I just reviewed her Ember Gold, and I just read her other book, but I haven’t reviewed it yet. And I think that these two authors, they’re authors I have my eye on. So I’ll leave it at that.

Amy Sloan: Yeah, Millie, again, I feel like I keep saying, oh, Nathan on the podcast too, but Millie was a previous podcast guest as well, and I know my daughter has enjoyed her book. So that is great. How about you, Megan? What are some favorites?

Megan Saben: Oh, so yes. Besides the ones that I mentioned already from childhood, the 21st century favorites that just keep coming up every time someone asks for recommendations would include I’m Just No Good at Rhyming by Chris Harris. I really liked that for poetry. I just finished reading the first three Dragon Lord saga books by Johnny Jimison, and I’m really looking forward to the next one. And that’s a trilogy that my boys kept coming and taking the books off my desk, which makes it hard to review them. I said, guys, where are they? Bring them back. And then I’m enjoying listening to the Vanderbeekers by Karina Jan Glaeser with my two youngest ones. I’m really enjoying Sarah Arthur’s I just finished Once a Queen, and I’m looking forward to reading Once a Castle. I love Jonathan Rogers and Kate DiCamillo. So that’s a handful. There’s one other one that I’m going to put out there just because it is not well known, and I don’t know. There are so many authors that I don’t necessarily love all their work, but they have one really beautiful gem, and one of those is Words by Hart. I’m not entirely sure how to pronounce her name, but this one was a rediscovery for me, and I recently reread it and really enjoyed it.

Amy Sloan: So okay. Well, you said several there that I’m not familiar with, including Words by Heart. Is that what you said? Right. So I’m like frantically writing down a few titles. I’m like, oh, I don’t want to forget these. Add them to my library holds, and we’re done. Well, you mentioned, you know, you have these books for review, and your boys are coming and taking them off your desk. And I can imagine parents thinking, oh, my children, I can’t seem to get them to read the good stories, and it’s so hard. Or maybe they’re reading things, and I’m not sure if they’re thinking about them well. So Megan, what would you say about encouraging parents how they can equip their children to read with delight and discernment? Kind of both of those things, and not so much worrying about whether or not they’re reading at grade level.

Megan Saben: So when my oldest was learning to read, or at an age where I thought he should be learning to read, he was bulking at, you know, the Bob books and Hats, Hats, Hats, and the books that I thought he needed to use in order to, you know, become an independent reader. But he wasn’t interested in those. He wasn’t interested in the phonics program I was using. And I wasn’t sure what was, how I could turn his interest. It turns out, he could read before he would let on, but it wasn’t until he discovered Calvin and Hobbes that he started showing he could read. And the problem was, he didn’t want me to stop reading aloud to him, because he enjoyed that so much, because we were reading better stories than Bob books and Hats, Hats, Hats. So he taught himself to read at seven, and when he was totally absorbed in books at bedtime, and his younger brother saw him, his younger brother learned at six, and then the next brother picked it up. And I thought, great, they’re enjoying books. Well, number four, Philip was having trouble learning to read too. He’s just a more hands on kind of guy. And he was struggling more with the process. So I thought, okay, we’re going to go back to phonics. And I’m going to work with him on this. Well, it really wasn’t going anywhere. And I finally realized, okay, the point of learning to read is not to check off this reader and that reader. It’s to enjoy the book. And so we just went back to the Elephant and Piggy books, and to Cat in the Hat. And next thing I know, one Sunday afternoon, he came down and said, I just read, I’m on page 27 of Freddy the Pig. Because it was a book that delighted him. And so it was worth the effort. Delight is a huge motivator. It works for me. And so another way that we have engaged in delight and discernment as a family is using a motif journal. So I make lists. Sorry, I’m hearing the boys in the background. I’ll have to talk to them again. I enjoy making lists of recurring motifs in literature. And the boys enjoy saying, hey, I found another one. And making connections between all these books that have short heroes, or books that are school stories, or books where the character is wearing red shoes. Do you know which book covers more categories than any other?

Amy Sloan: War and Peace?

Megan Saben: Calvin and Hobbes has more common motifs with any other book than anything else. So when a lot of your literary delight is found in something that the whole family can enjoy and talk about and make connections with, then you’re going to motivate children to enjoy what they’re reading.

Amy Sloan: I love that so much. Because it is, like, joking aside, there’s that thing where it’s like the list of common themes in literature. And they’re like, oh, look, War and Peace. It’s all of them. You’re like, well, I don’t know how many adults want to read War and Peace, frankly. I read that in the middle of the night when I was pregnant with my first child. I was sick all the time. I was like, I guess this is when I read War and Peace. So it’s very much associated with nausea in my mind. But the big picture is a lot of times people do think, oh, wow, we can only have these great literary deep discussions and teach discernment with our reading if we’re reading something very impressive and long and gloomy. But that you bring up Calvin and Hobbes, you know, something that is delightful and enjoyable and accessible and yet has so much depth as well. How about you, Betsy? What has been your experience with discernment and delight in reading?

Betsy Farquhar: Well, so a lot of the same sort of thing. My three kids are only, I have three kids within 18 months of each other, and we all learned to read differently. And then being in the classroom for several years, no reader is the same. Everybody reads at their own pace and their own style and their own genre. And it doesn’t mean we don’t want to expose kids to sort of the cultural greats, but it does mean that there’s not an exact path that each person’s going to follow. So maybe one kid’s reading picture books longer than another kid, and another kid dove into chapter books at age four. And I mean, it’s all going to wash out in the end, right? But I think the biggest thing I would add to Megan’s is that the parents really set the stage, both by reading to their kids and reading on their own. And if we are reading with delight and we’re talking about what we read, maybe my husband and I are talking about a book we both have been reading, that’s going to set a really good example for kids that this is normal, right? It’s normal to engage with a book, and it doesn’t matter if the book is Frog and Toad or War and Peace, we can engage with it at some level. And just by kind of making that the norm, that it’s okay to critique a book, it’s okay to talk about what we like, what we don’t like, and that that’s fun, the talking about it is fun, the reading is fun, it makes it normal. And that’s huge. That’s a lot different from saying you have to pass a comprehension test on a book. Right.

Megan Saben: And these are things that we address in our book. So Betsy has a whole chapter on discernment and delight. There’s a chapter in there on the emerging reader. I mean, what is it going to take to make it worth a child’s effort that we kind of take for granted that we have learned how to read? And it’s easy to forget the struggle, but to encourage an emerging reader to put in that effort and that work, there’s got to be a whole lot more rewards than just moving on to the next reader.

Amy Sloan: Yeah, that’s a really good point. So guys, you know, many parents have legitimate concerns about the content of what their children are reading. So whether really it’s an older book or a new release, we’re having to be wise and discerning and careful, and they will have different blind spots and different problems that sometimes can be equally problematic, whether we’re reading something that is old or that is new. And so we still have to really use a lot of wisdom with cultural engagement. And we can’t find the perfect book list that will protect our children from all problems, right? So how do we deal with the real cultural concerns in the books that our kids are reading? And Betsy, I’ll let you get us started with this one.

Betsy Farquhar: I always get tasked with this question. We call these messy books at Reading Reader. But I love that you pointed out that old books have issues just as much as new books. We like to remind people that the Bible is a messy book. I just finished Judges in my reading, and I’m always like, Lord, why is this story of this poor concubine in the Bible? Like what? So I just think that’s helpful to remember that when we read about an issue in a book, our first standard is scripture. And how does the Bible handle that same content? And there’s a lot of ways we could take that question. But of course, the Bible doesn’t glorify sin. It presents sin. It shows us what that looks like and what the consequences are. But it doesn’t ignore it. So we need to not be surprised when a book introduces something that’s, I mean, we live in a fallen world. We’re sinners. The authors are sinners. The characters in the book are sinners. So what I like to ask, and when we’re reviewing a book, we ask, why is something in this book in the first place? Is the author trying to glorify something that shouldn’t be glorified? Is an author asking really insightful questions about the human condition that are worth talking about? And a lot of times, especially in that second instance, it might simply be a maturity question even more than, is this okay? So I like to use To Kill a Mockingbird because a lot of people are familiar with that story. There’s some pretty hard stuff in that book. But I think most people would say it’s a book worth reading. I’m just not going to have my seven-year-old read it. But my 14-year-old needs to be ready to grapple with some of those ideas. And so you’re going to consider your child’s age and maturity level. What is their conscience ready for? And you’re going to look at the book itself. Why is the content in the book? That will take you a lot of directions. We’ll try not to refer to our book in every single thing. But we do actually cover this quite a bit in the book. We have a chapter on environmentalism, a chapter on activism, a chapter on historical racism. Like, on my angles, use some pretty disparaging terms about other people groups. Like, that’s not okay, even though we can love the book. So we cover this on a lot of different angles. But I mean, you want to have your eyes wide open. You want to not read any book without your discerning brain on, right? No book other than scripture is inspired. So every book is prone to error. And with that mentality, we can go forth in faith, right? We’re taking our thoughts captive. We’re looking back to scripture. We’re talking with our kids. It’s a guarantee that our kids are going to read things we wish they wouldn’t have been exposed to. Because we live in a fallen world. So whether it’s in a public bathroom and they see something on the wall or a book from the library, they’re going to come into contact with stuff that we wish they wouldn’t. And so, you know, we as parents and teachers need to come alongside them and engage and look to scripture. What does the Bible have to say about this? Where is Jesus in this? What does this show about our need for Jesus? And how does it help us to look at other people around us, right? Somebody out there is struggling with this, even if you’re not. And so it should sort of broaden our perspective, helpfully, as believers.

Amy Sloan: I was actually just having this conversation with my kids a couple days ago. Sometimes it’s funny to hear their version of your parenting, like what they remember about how you parented. I’m like, really? Okay. But one of the things they were talking about is when they were younger and I first started letting them, like, get books from the library that I had never read before. Or, you know, a cousin or a friend would recommend a book and I would let them check it out. And they said, yeah, mom, you would always be like, okay, now you need to be reading with discernment and be ready to discuss the themes with me and keep your eyes open. Notice what the author’s telling you is true. And they said, so we would always read it. We’d be a little bit intimidated. But they said, you know, now when they, like, go to a bookshelf at the library, they’re like, we’re still thinking about that. Okay. Like, what are the themes of the book? And what is the author saying? And I was like, well, I’m kind of okay with that. Like, don’t be scared of the books. I’ve tried to really have a lot of freedom as my kids have gotten older. Like, I want them to learn how to do that on their own with a book. But it was funny. They said, yeah, you used to really intimidate us. So I was like, I’m sorry. But not too sorry.

Betsy Farquhar: I’ll add that that’s, this is another area where we model it as parents. Like, if we’re listening to an audio book with them, we’ve turned a book off and said, okay, before we continue, let’s just kind of regroup and notice what we’re hearing. Or we’ll do it with TV shows and movies. We’re the worst people to watch movies with. Because we critique, you know, the art part too. Like, ooh, that was a really good, you know, art shot. And anyways, but we’ll stop TV shows and talk about them. So it’s like anything in culture should be up for debate. Right? It’s not just what you’re reading. And I think kind of cultivating that general mindset that, yeah, we’re always kind of on the lookout. Just, we’re always engaged. Right? Don’t turn your brain off.

Amy Sloan: Yeah. And that’s where there’s that balance. We’re not coming in and like, just waiting for the gotcha moment. Because we’re wanting to listen humbly to the author or to the film writer. You know, what are they saying? We’re wanting to receive a little bit of this piece of art. While also being wise and careful and prudent, you know, thoughtful about it. Which is not the same as just being always ready for a gotcha moment. Right? Right.

Betsy Farquhar: We’re not watchdogs. Yeah.

Amy Sloan: How about you, Megan? What is sort of your family’s experience been?

Megan Saben: What I wanted to add to what Betsy said so well is that, first of all, taking the other extreme and reading books that are all screen is not the solution to avoiding these conversations. Because that is not an honest reflect of the world that we live in. So, it’s not true. And that doesn’t mean that we need to go look for, you know, gritty things. But that also means that we don’t have to just look for everything that won’t have any issues that we need to talk about. So, a good question to think about is, does this book help you to love your neighbor, according to scripture? Because that means loving people who are different than you. People that you can relate to and people that you can’t. And if you disagree with someone or with their choices, is it biblical the way that you are responding to them as people made in the image of God? Or characters inspired by, you know, who are written by an author. But are you able to love your neighbor as someone made in the image of God? And does this book help you to do that?

Amy Sloan: Okay, I’m kind of getting goosebumps. Because this happens, like, every season, totally unintentionally and not part of my, like, planned questions or planned themes. Like, a theme and a common topic will arise, like, with everyone with whom I speak. And because I batch record, I notice it. Because I record a lot of episodes all together. Behind the scenes, little note there. And love of neighbor as a theme for education, for hospitality, for literature, for all these different things is, like, a recurring theme. So I love the way the Lord is bringing that out. Because that’s such a beautiful reminder. And then to your point, too, like, if we somehow just had this sanitized book list with all these squeaky clean books, that wouldn’t actually be telling our children truth either. That’s a really important reminder. You know, I’m really thankful that we’ve read stories of dragons and darkness and grief and loss and all those things. That’s been something we’ve read about. Because, you know, my child at eight years old faced the dragon of cancer and is still facing and fighting. And he doesn’t need books that tell him life is always happy and everything’s okay. Because it’s not. He knows that would be a lie. And so to read books of dragons that are defeated is such a beautiful reminder that the world is often dark and hard. But we have a Savior, right? There’s something, there’s truth in just what we see. So, yeah. I’m really passionate about that. Even more now than I was before. And that kind of segues to my next question, which is thinking about both truth and story in children’s literature. I know we’ve talked about this before, but Megan, how would you kind of explain like how we want to think about both of those things when we read a book?

Megan Saben: All right. I have a visual for you and I will explain as I go. All right. So, I love drinking tea or coffee or really, really good hot chocolate. And when I’m going to, when I’m choosing the options from my cupboard, I could choose a standard ceramic mug. This happens to be Babylon B, which would be a great choice. But, you know, the mug itself is not distinctive. Or I could choose a lovely ginger eater pottery mug, which makes everything taste better. Or I could choose a lovely teacup and saucer that have memories. Or Betsy has a styrofoam cup. Now, does it really matter what I drink out of? Because whatever I put in there, it’s not going to be changed necessarily by the vessel that it’s in, right? But it’s, it is a factor actually. And so, if we think of the vessel as story, and if we think of truth as what goes in the vessel. So, what goes in the vessel might be my favorite Yorkshire gold tea. Or it might be another artisan tea. Or it might be Swiss Miss hot chocolate. And if you follow the instructions, you can make it with water. Now, you can’t really improve a, a basic hot chocolate mix made with water. You cannot improve the taste by putting it in a really, in, in your favorite mug. But it also wouldn’t, wouldn’t taste right to take a really nice tea and put it in a styrofoam cup. It just destroys the experience. Okay? So, at Redeemed Reader, we like to talk about capital T truth and lower T, lowercase truth and capital S story and lowercase story. So, if you think about putting, so, capital T truth would be God’s truth as revealed in scripture. It is the reality of, of who God is, who we are, creation, fall, redemption, and future hope. All of those things are capital T truth. And you can find those in the best stories, they may appear as common grace, like a good family life, or a solid marriage, or books about, you know, weeds, beautiful flowers growing out of the sidewalk, or something like that. Those would be capital T truth. And if you combine that with capital S story, then you have something like the lion, the witch, and the wardrobe, which is so memorable, that every time you, you, you encounter the story again, it just brings life, and renewal, and joy, and, joy. But you can also take capital T truth, and you can combine it with hot chocolate made with water. And which would be like a lowercase s story, which would be more didactic, which is telling you, this is what, you know, this is the truth that you need to understand. Um, or you could have lowercase story with, um, oh, I’m sorry, lowercase truth with capital S story. Um, Betsy, I’m trying to remember some of the examples of that that we put in the book because we put a grid and you’re trying to give some good examples of this. Noah’s Ark is a good example, um, if you, if you think about like picture book versions of Noah’s Ark, um, you might find one, um, you might find a board book that has Noah and the animals and everyone is looking very happy and there’s a story about a flood and there’s the rainbow and it may or may not address sin, but it generally tells the story that would be lowercase story, but capital T truth. So, um, there are different combinations that you can look at these, um, that you can evaluate stories in this way, but the point is not to pick apart the story and say, oh, that one’s not good enough because that one’s lowercase truth and lowercase story, but it might just be really fun and really worth reading and, um, but it just can help with the discernment and the discussion to, um, to think about the delight of drinking your favorite tea out of your favorite mug, as opposed to some of the alternatives. Does that help?

Amy Sloan: Yes, it does. I think that’s a helpful grid kind of to, to evaluate. And then we don’t want poison in a beautiful mug or a styrofoam mug, right? Right. Betsy, would you add anything to that?

Betsy Farquhar: Well, just that we, we want the best of both. And so we, we really like it when we see Christian artists and authors doing excellent craftsmanship, not just including their truth in their stories. Right. And we love it when secular illustrators who are really great at their craft are through God’s common grace, asking really profound questions about the human condition. So we’re always looking for the best of both, however they mean the best.

Amy Sloan: Yeah. It’s hard to get better than like C.S. Lewis, Tolkien. So this is pretty much, they knocked it out of the park. Oh, Betsy, I loved the way you, you have talked about loving our book neighbors. And so I wanted to ask if you can kind of tell us some ways that we can better love our libraries and our book neighbors.

Betsy Farquhar: This is a really loaded question. I know this podcast is going to air down the road, but as we’re recording it, it’s just days away. And that’s such a delightful time at local libraries. So if parents are listening, they may want to make sure children are not in the room right now. My library had a condoms display right by the picture books for Pride Month, and it’s not unique to my library, but I’m just going to acknowledge that there are lots of issues with our local libraries that parents are rightly concerned about. But the flip side is that there are many Christians working in libraries and libraries, both school and public, are not Christian organizations. They’re not bound to only put in books that I might prefer. And that’s actually a real strength of theirs, because the books that I might prefer are going to be offensive to my Buddhist neighbors or my atheist neighbors. And so we actually, it’s actually a good thing that there’s a lot of variety in our libraries. So the best approach that we like to advocate is to use your library. And that’s going to look different for different seasons of your family, and it’s going to look different for your personal library. You might not want to go to a drag queen story hour, but there might be a children’s story hour that you can attend with your children. You can smile and be friendly and kind to the book people that you meet, whether it’s a bookstore representative, a librarian, an author. Sometimes we’re pretty, we as Christians can be pretty hateful to other authors that we don’t like. We don’t like their book. That’s still a person made in the image of God. So our first advice is always build a relationship before you go to war. How can we love these neighbors of ours? How can we be kind? If I have a concern, it will go a lot better for me if I’ve already built a relationship through being kind to my librarians. There’s a lot of digital resources you can access without even going into the library or making your visit really limited. So for me, in my library in June, I just put everything on hold, slip in, get my holds, self-checkout, get out. But I’m still smiling to my librarians because the truth is the people behind the desk are not always the ones making the decisions about the displays or the programming or even the books that are on the shelves. So it’s just helpful to keep in mind that there’s a lot of moving parts to these conversations. And our very first priority is to love our neighbor. It is a matter of conscience. My children are all, you know, they’re legally adults at this point, so I don’t have a problem with them coming to the library with me. But when they were five, I did preview all the books that we checked out. You know, mom got final say so. And that’s OK. There’s a whole range in between those two ages. And we cannot speak into our communities very, very knowledgeably if we don’t have a knowledge of our community. So we’re big advocates of, you know, serving on your Friends of the Library board, doing the summer reading program at your library. Whatever you can do that doesn’t violate your conscience, but whatever you can do to engage is going to help down the road, would be my advice.

Amy Sloan: I love that. That’s really great advice that I think all of us, no matter what stage we’re in with our kids, can apply. And then just on a practical level, too, I would say I know at least in my library system and I would think probably most public library systems, there’s ways to request books. So a really easy way you can support authors, even like the new Redeemed Reader book, you know, we can request our libraries to purchase these books and bring in the good books that we want to see, the good resources that aren’t available. And I think that’s another way to kind of to support and be part of the library system and also be helping bring some good quality books to the shelves.

Betsy Farquhar: And if they order the books you request, you should thank them and then check them out because they do go by those circulation stats. You know what books are getting checked out. It’s important.

Amy Sloan: Yes, definitely. Well, I know that both of you have degrees, advanced degrees in children’s literature, which is super cool. And I don’t think a lot of people realize you can even do that. But I think we all have a little bit of ourselves that are like, oh, my goodness, that would be the most amazing degree ever to get. And I had forgotten that you guys were in classes together and then you get to work together. I mean, you guys are living the dream life right now. But I’m wondering if you have any particular favorite classes or professors from your grad school experience. So Megan, I’ll shoot that to you first.

Megan Saben: Well, first of all, I need to back up to our experience at Covenant College because that was really the turning point. There was one particular day in one particular class that was life changing for me and totally changed the trajectory and is also the reason I ended up in Virginia married to an engineer. I mean, it was one day. So it was Mr. Pettit’s. But I had no idea that. So Betsy and I were both in a children’s literature class taught by Mr. Pettit, who is the assistant librarian. And he had apparently recently read a book by Madeline L’Engle, which I think it’s the book that one of the ones I’m reading right now. And also he had been thinking about Francis Schaefer and he’s the one who introduced the idea of capital T truth and lowercase and and truth and story to us. And as as one of the assignments for class, we were supposed to keep a reading journal. And that was the first time that I read the entire Chronicles of Narnia. I’d only read The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe growing up. But finally, when I was in college, I finished the rest of the series. So it is not too late for anyone to enjoy a really good book. But I was reading The End of the Voyage of the Dawn Treader, and it just opened my eyes to see how beautifully truth and story came together. And I wept. It was beautiful. So then after that, the Lord led me to this children’s literature program at Hollins. But to justify that, I had to also pursue a master’s in library science so that I could use this passion for books. And yes, the first summer I came out to Hollins in Roanoke and wrote Betsy all these letters about how amazing the classes were. And and then I ended up meeting my then future husband here and now we’re both here. And I get to go back and hear some of the summer speakers they have. So some of our some of my favorite classes, one that really stood out to me was literary criticism, because I think there were four books that we were assigned to read. A Little House on the Prairie, In the Night Kitchen, and A Little House on the Prairie in the Night Kitchen, a fairy tale book. And I think there was another one. I don’t remember. But over the course of the summer, we had to write papers reading these books from different worldviews. And so to not just assume that the way that I was, you know, would expect to read a book from my worldview was the right one or the only one or the best one. It was just helpful to read through different eyes without, you know, without having to actually agree with that position. But that was that was very helpful. And then there was a picture book illustrators class that was that was also wonderful to get to analyze and think more appreciatively of different types of artwork that I hadn’t really appreciated before. And, for example, Marsha Williams was, I believe, a three time Caldecott award winning illustrator. But you would never recognize one of her books compared with another. Because her style was so versatile and it just gave me a fresh appreciation for for the creativity of picture books.

Amy Sloan: That sounds amazing. I want to take all of this. Come on out. How about you, Betsy? Any favorite classes or professors or memories?

Betsy Farquhar: Oh, definitely. So my I did the Holland Children’s the Children’s Literature Masters at Holland’s and then my library degree was a school library degree. So I actually had quite a few children’s lit classes there as well. So for both of my programs, I really loved my young adult literature classes, just very thought provoking. And then I have other favorite professors. But a couple of classes really stood out to me. Jill May, who is just a favorite for both Megan and me, the nature of the program at Holland’s when we were there was very, oh, it was a very small cadre of students. And so there were often social events with the professors. And so I’m not sure if this was when we were in class or if we were actually at Dr. May’s apartment, but she was telling me how she read aloud to her kids when they were doing the dishes. And you just as you got to know her, you realized how much of her career and she’s written textbooks like she’s a renowned scholar in the children’s literature realm. But a lot of her career, she didn’t start until her kids were older. And it was very encouraging to me just to kind of see this woman who was super intelligent, very gifted, but she had still prioritized her family. And that was just I wasn’t married yet and hadn’t started my family. And that was a great example to have in front of me. And then my my fantasy professor, who was my thesis advisor, really stretched me. I mean, I just I thought I was going to fail and I had never even gotten a B on a paper. English was what I could do. Right. But he he really required me to dig deep. And that was really good for me. I don’t think personally he was quite as big an influence on my personal life, but as far as stretching me academically. And then finally, we had to take a class. I think this was an elective where we could write a picture book. And there was a current picture book author, illustrator who was teaching that class. And I learned that writing a picture book is so hard. It is unbelievable. It’s the hardest writing I have ever done. And I learned I am not good at it. So now when I read a picture book, I definitely evaluate them differently.

Megan Saben: I was going to mention, too, that, yes, the writing workshops that I took were wonderful and they were very helpful in shaping my writing. And I love writing picture books. I’m grateful that Betsy has these academic gifts, you know, to wax eloquent in in different ways than I do. I mean, I would write picture books all day. But being able to write a manuscript and take it to the class and have the class evaluate it and give you honest feedback on it. It’s very humbling, but it is so helpful. And I have one manuscript that I don’t remember if I workshopped it two summers or three. I still haven’t gotten it published because I still need to keep working on it. But it was good.

Amy Sloan: I think it’s so fascinating to hear just how much scholarship went in to the study of children’s literature from picture books through YA and everything in between, because they are their own unique art form and have every bit of the same level of themes and complexity and challenge and literary brilliance that goes into a really well done children’s book, as you know, Dickens. It’s different genres, right, but also worthy of study and respect and learning more about. And I just think that’s so, so fabulous that you both got to have that experience and to have it together, to have those shared memories. Wow. Alas, we could keep talking about books for hours, but we must draw to a close. But thankfully, because one of the questions I ask all my guests is also related to books, you get one more chance to share your favorite book. So the first question I ask all my guests is just what are you personally reading lately? So Megan, what are you personally reading lately?

Megan Saben: Well, at the moment, I am still basking in having finished listening to Watership Down for the second time. I have a book club that meets in my house and the teens discuss one book, the siblings discuss another book, and then the moms discuss another book. So it is a wonderful load. And I just recently finished listening to Watership Down for the second time. And the first time it gripped me in one way because I didn’t know if everyone was going to come out OK. And the second time I just got to enjoy it. And I really want to write down a whole bunch of quotes that I just loved. And it was amazing. So I haven’t quite decided yet which one I’m going to pick up next. And, you know, I’m always torn between I need to write to write book reviews, but I don’t have to review everything that I read either. So what I am currently reading is the Madeline L’Engle book, Story as Truth, The Rock That Is Higher. And I think that this is the one that Mr. Pettit read that influenced his class. I think I’m going to pick up The Unlikely Intrusion of Adams Klein by John Greco. That’s a new one from Moody Publishers. But otherwise, I’m still kind of deciding where I want to land.

Amy Sloan: That’s kind of a fun thing, too. There’s so many good books to choose from. How about you, Betsy? What are you reading these days?

Betsy Farquhar: Well, I always have lots going on. I’m enjoying Nikki Grimes’ Glory in the Margins, Sunday Poems on Sunday. It’s my little change of pace. And I’ve been listening to Jackie Hill Perry read me the Bible this year, and it’s been fabulous. So that’s kind of a change of pace. I have a brain candy book going on right now called The Emerald Mile, which is about a crazy boat journey down the Grand Canyon. So it’s natural history and geology and adventure. And I don’t have to review it because it’s for grownups and it’s perfect for graduation season. But I’m also re-listening to The Hunger Games series. I’m on the third book, Mockingjay, and I just finished Sunrise on the Reaping, which just came out. And there were so many Easter eggs in there that I thought before I review it, I need to go back and refresh. So we haven’t officially reviewed The Hunger Games. We did it for a summer reading discussion series when it first came out. So I’ll probably review that officially. The goal.

Amy Sloan: Well, maybe by the time this comes out, that review will be up. So you guys will have to go check out the Redeemed Reader, the Redeemed Reader site and see if that review is live. All right. Final question, Betsy, what would be your best tip for turning around a homeschool day that’s going all wrong? I’m sure you never had any of those.

Betsy Farquhar: No. The first time you interviewed me, I asked my kids and one of them said child labor. Um, anyways, prayer, of course, and I would say don’t take yourself or your kids too seriously. If it’s a pattern, then it’s time for some reflection and analysis and some troubleshooting. But everybody’s going to have a bad day and you just sort of move on. And Charlotte Mason would tell us what’s good for the child is good for the mother. So maybe you need to go take a walk with your kids, read a funny book like Calvin and Hobbes or just watch a TV show. Just, you know, take a step back. It’s all going to be OK. Perfect advice.

Amy Sloan: How about you, Megan?

Megan Saben: Well, some years ago, a godly, dear, godly spiritual mother told me to love your children, teach them what you can and lean hard on Jesus. And honestly, whatever, whatever good has come from our homeschooling days has not been because I did it well. It has simply been because the Lord is gracious and faithful. And so just keeping those priorities in mind to love your children above getting the tasks done and teaching them what you can means it’s not everything that you want to teach them. But giving, but remembering grace for you and your children and to lean hard on Jesus because we need his spirit so much.

Amy Sloan: That is a wonderful way to wrap up here at the end. Megan, where can people find you all around the Internet?

Megan Saben: All right. Well, besides Redeemed Reader, I have a website, an author website, and that’s megansaben.com. I’m also on Facebook and Instagram as at Megan Saben Author. So that’s where you can find me. I do have another picture book coming out in a couple of years. And so so hopefully there will be more to add.

Amy Sloan: Yeah, that’s exciting. We’ll have to keep an eye out for that one for sure. Thank you. Betsy, how about you? Where can we find you? And then also tell us the title of your new book and where people can find that book.

Betsy Farquhar: You can find me at redeemedreader.com. I’m the current voice person behind our Instagram feed, but I don’t really I’m not very active outside of Redeemed Reader. I kind of I like to keep a low profile on the whole Betsy Farquhar thing. So I don’t know, maybe I’ll start a blog before this, you know, we’ll go way back, way back to 2007. Our new book, Megan, correct me if I get our subtitle wrong, because it’s kind of a mouthful. The first part is called The Redeemed Reader, so you can find it with that. The subtitle is, Megan, help me out.

Megan Saben: The Redeemed Reader, Cultivating a Child’s Discernment and Imagination Through Truth and Story.

Amy Sloan: I love it. What a fabulous title and subtitle.

Betsy Farquhar: I know it’s going to be published by Moody Books, Moody Publishers, so they will have it on their website. It’s actually already available as of this recording on Amazon, and we would like to hope that other booksellers will carry it also. So we’re going to wait and see.

Amy Sloan: Well, I will, yeah, I will put a link to to the book, to Redeemed Reader, to Megan’s author site. You can find all of those links in the show notes for this episode over at HumilityandDoxology.com. Make sure you order their new book and check out their book reviews as well on their website. And if you have another homeschool mom friend that you think would benefit from this episode and be encouraged as they encourage their children in truth and story, please take a moment to pass this episode on to them. Send them to the YouTube channel, send them to Homeschool Conversations in their podcast app. That’s a great way to encourage other homeschool parents and help them discover homeschool conversations where we bring lots of great homeschool encouragement to your earbuds. So thank you to both of you ladies for taking the time to chat with me today. This was so much fun.

Megan Saben: Thank you, Amy.

Amy Sloan: Yeah. And until next time, happy homeschooling.