Navigating suffering, faith, and medical care can be challenging, especially when faced with life-altering illnesses or depression. In a world where suffering takes many forms, some struggles are outwardly visible, while others remain hidden. Depression is one such quiet suffering that can leave individuals feeling isolated and hopeless. In a recent conversation, Dr. Kathryn Butler, a trauma surgeon turned homeschool mom and author, shared her personal experience with depression and offered wisdom on how we can think about it biblically, encourage one another, and find hope in the darkness. Dr. Butler shares insights on the importance of caring for the whole person (body and soul), the role of faith in suffering, and how stories can bring clarity and hope in the midst of hard times. Whether you’re grappling with personal struggles or supporting a loved one, this discussion offers encouragement, practical guidance, and a gospel-centered perspective on suffering and healing.
- From Trauma Surgery to Writing and Homeschooling: Kathryn Butler’s Journey
- The Joys and Challenges of Homeschooling
- Seeing the Lord’s Mercy in Everyday Life
- Shepherding Others Through Suffering
- Understanding Depression in a Biblical Context
- The Hope We Have in Christ
- Key Takeaways
- Listen to the full podcast episode “Navigating Suffering: Finding Hope in the Darkness with Kathryn Butler” on Homeschool Conversations with Humility and Doxology
- Find Kathryn Butler Online
- You May Also Enjoy
- Check out all the other interviews in my Homeschool Conversations series!
{This post contains paid links. Please see disclaimer.}
From Trauma Surgery to Writing and Homeschooling: Kathryn Butler’s Journey
Kathryn Butler’s path from trauma surgery to homeschooling and writing was unexpected but deeply shaped by God’s grace. Initially raised in a secular home, she pursued medicine with a desire to help others—though she now recognizes that much of her drive was rooted in works-based righteousness. As a trauma surgeon, she regularly confronted suffering, which led her to wrestle with questions about God’s goodness. Through this, she came to faith in Christ. However, it wasn’t until her son struggled with sensory processing challenges that she felt called away from her career. Reading Deuteronomy 6:6-7 convicted her about the importance of daily discipleship in her children’s lives, leading her to step away from medicine to homeschool. Looking back, she sees how God used this shift not only to bless her family but also to dismantle the idolatry of career and self-reliance in her own heart.
Both Katie and Amy reflected on how easily parents—even homeschooling ones—can fall into the trap of thinking their efforts will guarantee specific outcomes, as if following the right formula ensures success. But as Katie realized, her children ultimately belong to the Lord, and her role is one of faithfulness rather than control. Ephesians 2:10 serves as a reminder that God has already prepared the good works ahead of time, and our job is simply to walk in them, trusting in His sovereignty rather than our own efforts.
The Joys and Challenges of Homeschooling
One of the greatest surprises of homeschooling for Kathryn Butler has been its constant evolution. Just when she thinks she has figured things out, her children grow and change, requiring her to adapt once again. While this can be a challenge, she finds it exciting and rewarding to stay engaged with their development, always looking ahead to what comes next. The process of meeting her children where they are and nurturing their growth keeps homeschooling dynamic and fulfilling.
Beyond the daily responsibilities—ensuring lessons are completed, chores are done, and schedules are followed—Kathryn finds deep joy in watching her children develop into the people God designed them to be. She cherishes the privilege of integrating God’s Word into their learning and providing an environment where they feel loved and supported. While the journey isn’t always easy, we agree that the rewards of homeschooling far outweigh the challenges, making every struggle worthwhile.
Seeing the Lord’s Mercy in Everyday Life
Kathryn Butler has seen the Lord’s mercy woven throughout her homeschooling journey, especially in her son’s progress with sensory processing challenges. Looking back, she marvels at how God led her away from her medical career—a path she had held too tightly—and into a homeschooling life she never expected. Through the daily struggles and unexpected turns, she now sees God’s kindness in the transformation of her son. Moments like watching him confidently join an advanced swim team, when years earlier he couldn’t even tolerate bathwater on his face, or witnessing his profession of faith after once struggling to sit through church, remind her of God’s faithful provision.
God’s mercy is evident not just in major crises but also in the small, daily challenges of homeschooling. The constant, often overwhelming demands of parenting and teaching provide countless opportunities to experience God’s presence. Sometimes homeschooling means lots of extra suffering, but through it, we continue to see God’s mercies renewed every morning.
Find comfort in Scripture, particularly verses like 2 Corinthians 12:9—“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Kathryn shared how this truth sustained her not only in homeschooling but also in caring for a dear friend with dementia. In moments of exhaustion and uncertainty, she saw God’s hand providing just enough grace for each hour, reminding her to cry out to Him and trust in His unfailing mercy.
Shepherding Others Through Suffering
Kathryn Butler’s experiences in both medicine and personal caregiving have shaped her understanding of how to walk alongside others in suffering. While her medical expertise allowed her to guide families through complex health crises, she discovered that the most powerful form of support is simply being present. Whether sitting with a grieving friend, fetching a meal, or holding space for someone to express their fears, the most meaningful help often isn’t advice—it’s companionship.
She recalled a hospital visit where her friend, exasperated by unsolicited remedies for his illness, blurted out, “If one more person tells me to try apple cider vinegar, I’m gonna flip.” This moment highlighted how well-meaning advice can sometimes be more frustrating than helpful. Instead of rushing to fix problems, Kathryn emphasized the value of listening, empathizing, and offering comfort in tangible ways.
My own experience of receiving ongoing support through Isaac’s illness points to a similar truth. The most meaningful gestures weren’t grand but consistent—letters arriving weekly, meals continuing beyond the initial crisis, and small acts of kindness like bringing Isaac Chick-fil-A fries when that was all he could stomach.
The fear of “doing the wrong thing” should never keep us from showing up. Presence, patience, and simple acts of love often mean far more than perfect words.
Understanding Depression in a Biblical Context
Dr. Butler highlighted a harmful mindset that sometimes circulates within Christian communities—the idea that “real Christians don’t get depressed.” This misconception can alienate those who are already struggling, making them feel ashamed or unworthy. Instead, she emphasized that we live in a fallen world where suffering exists, including struggles with mental health.
The Bible itself acknowledges deep emotional anguish. King David, a man after God’s own heart, penned Psalms filled with sorrow and despair. Historical figures such as Charles Spurgeon also battled intense depression, showing that even faithful believers are not exempt from this challenge. Recognizing depression as a form of suffering rather than a sign of weak faith can open the door to genuine support and encouragement within the church.
The Comfort of the Psalms of Lament
While many turn to Psalms for comfort, Dr. Butler pointed out the particular value of the Psalms of Lament. These passages capture the depth of suffering while also turning the heart toward God’s faithfulness. Psalm 22, which Jesus himself quoted on the cross, is a powerful example: it begins with the cry, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” yet ultimately reaffirms trust in God’s sovereignty and salvation.
Engaging with these Psalms allows believers to acknowledge their pain honestly while also being reminded of God’s presence and promises. Even when emotions do not align with spiritual truths, meditating on God’s past faithfulness can be an anchor in the storm.
Practical Encouragement for Those Struggling
If someone is experiencing depression, taking the first step toward help can feel overwhelming. Dr. Butler advised seeking support within the local church, whether through a pastor, a trusted mentor, or Christian counseling. Online resources such as the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation (CCEF) and Anchored Hope provide access to trained professionals from a biblical perspective.
For those seeking deeper understanding, books such as Spurgeon’s Sorrows by Zach Eswine, I Trust When Dark My Road by Todd Peperkorn, and What Does Depression Mean for My Faith? by Dr. Butler herself offer both theological insight and practical guidance.
How to Support a Friend Who is Struggling
If you suspect someone is battling depression, Dr. Butler encouraged a proactive approach, beginning with a compassionate conversation. One crucial step is to assess whether the person is experiencing suicidal thoughts. Contrary to common fears, asking directly about suicidal ideation does not plant the idea but instead offers relief and a safe space to share. If someone expresses suicidal intent, immediate action—such as taking them to the emergency room or contacting the Suicide Crisis Lifeline—is necessary.
For those who are struggling but not in immediate danger, practical support can be invaluable. Because depression often affects motivation and concentration, offering tangible help—such as making phone calls to counselors, accompanying them to appointments, or simply being a consistent, listening presence—can make a significant difference.
The Hope We Have in Christ
Above all, the ultimate source of hope in depression is found in Christ. Jesus himself experienced deep sorrow and lamented before the Father, demonstrating that we have a high priest who understands our weaknesses (Hebrews 4:15). The cross stands as the ultimate testament of God’s love and the assurance that even in the darkest moments, we are never alone.
If you or someone you know is struggling with depression, know that you are not alone. Reach out for help, lean on the truth of Scripture, and rest in the knowledge that Christ understands, loves, and walks with you through the darkness.
Key Takeaways
- Depression is both physical and spiritual – Dr. Butler explains that depression involves both biological and spiritual components, and addressing it requires a holistic approach that includes medical care, biblical truth, and community support.
- Faith does not eliminate the need for help – She emphasizes that seeking medical or professional help for depression is not a sign of weak faith, but rather a wise and necessary step in stewarding our health while trusting in God’s care.
- God’s sovereignty brings peace in suffering – Dr. Butler emphasizes that trusting in God’s control helps navigate life’s hardships, especially in medical crises.
- The role of faith in medicine – She discusses how faith influences medical decision-making, especially at the end of life, and how doctors can approach care with compassion.
- How stories help us process pain – She explains how storytelling, particularly through fiction, can help both children and adults process suffering in a meaningful way.
- The importance of discussing suffering with children – Dr. Butler encourages parents to have open, age-appropriate conversations with their children about pain, death, and eternal hope.
- Modern medicine’s approach to suffering – She reflects on how medicine often focuses on extending life at all costs rather than considering the quality of life and spiritual readiness.
- Christians can face death with hope – The gospel assures believers that death is not the end, but a transition to eternal life, which changes how we approach suffering.
- Compassion and truth must go together – Whether in healthcare or personal conversations, balancing empathy with biblical truth is key when discussing suffering and medical choices.
Listen to the full podcast episode “Navigating Suffering: Finding Hope in the Darkness with Kathryn Butler” on Homeschool Conversations with Humility and Doxology
Kathryn Butler (MD, Columbia University) is a trauma surgeon turned author and homeschooling mom. She lives in the woods in northern Massachusetts with her husband, two kids, and two cats with Beatrix Potter-inspired names. When not writing articles and books out of joy for the Lord, she delights in leisurely hikes, strong coffee, vivid stories, and laughing out loud with her family.
Find Kathryn Butler Online
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Check out all the other interviews in my Homeschool Conversations series!
Amy Sloan: Hello friends, today I am joined by Katherine Butler, or Katie, who is a trauma surgeon turned author and homeschooling mom. She lives in the woods in northern Massachusetts with her husband, two kids, and two cats with Beatrix Potter-inspired names. I love that. When not writing articles and books out of joy for the Lord, she delights in leisurely hikes, strong coffee, vivid stories, and laughing out loud with her family. And just a little background on how I first got introduced to you. A friend of mine several years ago actually had recommended your two books, Glimmers of Grace and, oh, what was the other one? Between Life and Death. Yes, Between Life and Death. And actually, Between Life and Death was extremely valuable, and that was sort of looking at medical and end-of-life decisions from a Christian perspective. I was really thankful to have read it before my son’s diagnosis, just kind of have some clarity of thought about different medical decisions. And then last year, I believe, I was interviewing Sarah McKenzie, and she was like, oh, have you heard about this Dream Keeper saga series? And I hadn’t, but I thought, oh, it sounded like it would be just up my daughter’s alley. And then I was surprised. I was like, oh, wait, this is the same author. So that was kind of a fun connection. But I’m really excited to get to chat with you here today. So I kind of gave you your official professional biography there, but just tell us a little bit about yourself and your family, and then how the Lord brought you from trauma surgery to writing and homeschooling, and just how that whole journey and process has shaped you and your family.
Kathryn Butler: Yeah. Well, thank you, first of all, for having me on. It’s just a joy. And I love the work you’ve done for a decade now of hosting this podcast, right, and just encouraging homeschool families. And it’s a ministry of grace, really. So thank you so much, and it’s a joy to be here. So yeah, my name’s Katie. I did not grow up knowing the Lord, actually. I was raised in a secular home. Went into medicine because I wanted to help people, but a big, hefty dose of it was trying to earn my own salvation. It was really a lot of works righteousness. Went into surgery, and then trauma surgery, which is a fancy way of saying it was my job to take care of anybody who came in through the ER after an accident, who had ruptured appendicitis, a whole gamut of things, and needed to go to the operating room. That’s what I would do. And I would do ICU care. And then it was really through that work and through witnessing suffering repeatedly and really wrestling with big questions as a result of God’s goodness, does God exist if suffering occurs, and really wrestling through that, the Lord brought me to himself. And I came to know Christ. And then in a series of events that I never would have anticipated, He then drew me away from that entirely to homeschool. And at the time, it was never my plan. I was a product of the public school system, so it was my husband. I, again, was a baby Christian at the time. But my son had a sensory processing disorder when he was younger, and he was struggling mightily just to get through every day. And our home life was in shambles. And at that time, I was actually reading through Deuteronomy, and I came across chapter 6, verses 6 to 7, saying that we’re to be training our kids and shepherding them in God’s word, not just on Sundays, but when they rise, when they walk in the way, when they lie down. And it’s to infuse every moment of every day. And I clearly was not upholding that. And so through a lot of prayer and wrestling, I left practice. And I really say it was just God’s grace that drew me away, because not only has it been such just a wonderful point of flourishing for our family in terms of my kids, in terms of their heart training, in terms of our unity as a family, but also I realize now in retrospect that God was tearing down a place in my heart that rightfully belonged to Him that my career occupied. So it was unexpected, but really just a point of God’s grace that drew us away. And I look back, and I’m just so grateful and touched and awestruck that this is what God does. He works through something that’s very hard so often to bring about such beauty and such redemption. You know, it’s almost a model of the cross. And He did that for our family. It was a very, very hard time, but He has just enriched us so abundantly through it.
Amy Sloan: And, you know, to think through how you were saying this work’s righteousness that was maybe at the root of some of those things and this desire to earn favor, whether we realize it or not. Sometimes we think we’re trying to earn favor from others or earn favor from God, and to see how He loves us too much. You know, He loves us too much to leave us in that place of reliance on self or fear, worry, anxiety. And even as Christian homeschool parents, we can face that too, right? This idea, sometimes I say like the vending machine idea. If we just like push the right buttons, you know, we’ll get out the right product. We’ll get the output. Yeah, right, right. No, that’s still that reliance on if I could just find, you know, the right curriculum or just do this homeschool thing right somehow, God would be pleased with me and my kids would be perfect. And then that’s not the way it works.
Kathryn Butler: Yeah, exactly. If anything, in terms of the input-output algorithm, what I’ve just realized is just so clearly through homeschooling and it opened my eyes to the truth that, you know, they are not mine. They belong to the Lord and He is, you know, shaping them and determining like from Ephesians 2.10, the works that they’re going to do. And my job is just to try to be as faithful as I can while I’m along for the ride, you know, but just how much of it is just trusting in Him and in His work and that it’s not going to be a net. The effort that I put in, I’m going to be guaranteed a certain output because these are these individual, unique people that belong to Him.
Amy Sloan: Yeah. And I love that verse in Ephesians 2. I often reflect on that as an encouragement to myself or my kids. Like God prepared these good works for us like already before. Exactly. He knows. We just have to walk in them. Arranged it. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, as you’ve been homeschooling over the years now, what have been some things that maybe surprised you about homeschooling? Have there been any things that have been especially rich and your favorite parts and maybe some challenges that you’ve had to face and overcome?
Kathryn Butler: Yeah, I think one of the richest components is also, I think, the most consistent challenge, which is that whenever you feel like you’ve figured it out, they grow and they develop and suddenly you need to reconfigure everything you thought you had. But I mean, that actually, to me, is a point of joy though. And it’s exciting because it means you’re always trying to think one step ahead and try to meet the kids where they are, which I think from an educational standpoint is just so rewarding to say, okay, you’re growing and you’re flourishing. And okay, let me see what we can do next. Where can you grow next? And so that part of being on your toes all the time, I think is a challenge. In terms of the things I love most, it’s just been such a joy to see them develop into the people God’s designed them to be. I think it’s a privilege. I’m kind of breathless when I think about it. In between all the hairiness and the stressors of making sure they get out the door and they clean their rooms and you get your Latin done and all that, I mean, between the day to day. But the moments where you step back and you say, gosh, wow, they’re growing and they’re developing and they’re being nurtured in this environment where they know they’re loved. And the fact that we can take God’s word and make it a part of everything that they learn and everything that they do, it’s a gift to be in this position. And I’ve just found it a joy.
Amy Sloan: Yeah. And seeing that even more and more as my older kids, well, by the time this comes out, my oldest may have already had his birthday this year, but this year, as of this year, the ages will be 20, 18 on down. So I’ll still have children at home, but I’m getting to see really these young adults who just are becoming more and more themselves. You start getting that in the teen years and that can be exciting. But I just have such joy seeing these people who are, they’re not copies of me or their dad. They’re their own unique people that God’s made them. And I got to be along for that whole ride. And it’s not always been easy. Sometimes actually it’s been quite painful, but worth it for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree completely. Well, what are some of the ways that you see the Lord’s mercy at work every day?
Kathryn Butler: Yeah. Oh my goodness. For homeschooling, I reflect a lot because I mentioned that my son had really, he’s not on the spectrum, but his level of sensory processing difficulties were as severe as many kids with autism. And when I left practice, I had him, he was in therapy for a few years doing OT and it was really a challenge. But to see now the way God provided for us, because it was never our plan, he drew me away from what I was doing very idolatrously. And to see now the small moments when my son will do something and just be enthralled by it, that he never would have been able to do before, just by God’s kindness, steering us in this direction we never wanted to go in. So I had one of those moments this summer where he went up to his swimming instructor and said, I think I’m okay to be in the advanced team and was jumping and splashing and laughing. And I had a flashback to when he was in preschool and he could not take a bath because the feeling of the water on his face was like needles, where he made his profession of faith last year in front of our church. And about six years ago, he couldn’t even sit through church because he’d have the headphones on and he’d have a meltdown afterwards because the noise in the crowd was so much. So I think there’s a lot of having come from that place and seeing how the Lord’s guided us through and ushered us through. I just consider, my gosh, Lord, you’re so merciful. I don’t deserve any of this. We don’t deserve any of this. But this is what you do for us. This is how you provide. So I have a lot of those moments
Amy Sloan:. Yeah. So many times, sometimes it’ll be through a larger, well, I hate to say something like there’s a larger amount of suffering, but sometimes it can be like a crisis or something larger maybe from a human perspective. And other times, it’s just that little small challenge that you’re facing on a day-to-day. And to see the Lord every time, like consistently, He never leaves us or forsakes us, right? Like He is there through the suffering and the challenges to be at work and to show us how much He loves us even there. And then with homeschooling, it’s like we get to do it all the time with our kids. So we get to have lots of extra suffering. But through that, we get to see again and again, the Lord’s mercy is new every single morning as we educate our kids. It’s pretty amazing.
Kathryn Butler: Absolutely. One of my favorite verses, and I’m thinking because you’ve mentioned it new every morning, I love 2 Corinthians 12.9. My grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness. And I feel like this whole homeschooling journey just confronts us with that reality so often, especially when like with what you’re going through with your son, where you have these trials that just bear down on you in addition to you trying to shepherd your families. And those moments where you just cry out, it’s like, Lord, I can’t do anymore. This is enough. I until recently cared for a friend, a dear friend who had no family and had a number of strokes and then developed dementia. And I was her healthcare proxy. And so I was basically her caregiver for five years. And there were so many of those moments where it’s like, Lord, I can’t do this. This is just, I’m not going to be able to care for her and my family the way that is necessary. And there were so many moments where you just saw his hand reach down and it was, there’s mercy and there’s grace for this day and this moment. And you’re in this position, yes, cry out to me because I’m here and you need me. Just those moments when he provides, he gets you through the next hour when you feel like you can’t go any further.
Amy Sloan: Yeah. Well, through that experience with your friend and parenting, your previous work even as well, what are some of the things you’ve learned about walking along someone and shepherding someone through times of suffering? Yeah, I think through all of it.
Kathryn Butler: So I had the position of being clinically involved with people in the hospital who were in just dire straits and some of their worst moments. And so the real area I loved when I was in medicine was ICU. I loved it because it was a real privilege to come alongside people when they were struggling with life-threatening critical illness and to help guide the families through that I especially loved. And then the other side of things is that since I left practice, the Lord has really put me in positions where I’m very closely involved with friends usually, often brothers and sisters in Christ, who are going through health crises and been able to kind of shepherd them through. And I think it’s because there’s that commonality of being in the Lord and being able to speak to those spiritual truths, but also having a very intimate deep knowledge of the jargon and being able to translate it. And so I’ve had several relationships where it’s been very intense. I think that the thing I’ve learned the most is that the best way to walk alongside someone in the setting of suffering is honestly just to have the administrative presence is the most important thing. Where even though I have all this background, that was helpful very often, but what was most helpful is when my friend’s in the hospital and he’s like, I really want fried chicken. Can you go get it for me? You know, and those moments where someone’s comfortable enough with you to admit that they’re scared and they are okay crying on your shoulder and you can hold them. And perhaps you quote from the Psalms, perhaps you pray with them, whatever it is. But the most important thing is that you’re there in the moment, loving them, treating them as, you know, the brother or sister that they are, and just resting in whatever their grief is with them, being in that moment with them. I think that is really the most important thing, especially since I think our impulse, especially in our society, is to want to fix everything. To say, well, you know what, you should do this. You know, and I had, you probably read in Glimmers of Grace, my friend David, I walked into his hospital room one day and the first thing he said to me before he even said hello, he said, if one more person, he had emphysema, if one more person tells me to try apple cider vinegar, I’m gonna flip. And I think too often we try to be helpful, we don’t know what to do, so we’ll say things, you know, my friend did this, you should try this. And really the thing I think most important is just to be there to listen to somebody’s narrative about what their suffering is and what they’re going through, and then be present, rather than offering advice, especially if it’s unsolicited.
Amy Sloan: Yes, I would definitely say a big amen to that. I’d be like, okay, thank you, I appreciate you telling me about this magic, you know, formula that will solve my son’s cancer. But, you know, and I take it, I have tried to take it in the vein in which, you know, the intention behind it, which is love and care, but it can be less loving than you intend. But the thing that’s been most meaningful is exactly what you’re saying. Those people, not just who show up at the beginning of a crisis, even, but the ones who still are there, you know, repeatedly. Like, we have people who have sent us letters every week since Isaac’s diagnosis, or people who’ve brought meals even when the meal train was over, or people who still just have been with us, who have, you know, brought Isaac Chick-fil-A fries when that was the only thing he would eat in the hospital, or whatever. And those things, they don’t seem maybe big or glamorous, or like you want to do something big sometimes, but those things really, really matter. And they mean a lot. So I think sometimes we’re afraid, like we are worried we’ll do the wrong thing, or we’re not exactly sure what to say or do, but just being there with someone is so important. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, we’ve kind of talked about some of these maybe bigger, more obvious times of suffering, like emphysema, or hospitalizations, or, you know, dementia, all those sort of more obvious times of suffering. But for many, for many of us, I know that there can be the sort of hidden suffering of just being lonely, or feeling depressed, and not being able to feel hope. And, you know, there’s no wound on the outside. You don’t have a cast on your arm, but it’s hard, and you can feel so lonely. So how can we think about depression biblically? How can we encourage one another in this struggle? And then how do we find hope in the midst of those dark times?
Kathryn Butler: My goodness. So you likely know already, I’ve struggled with depression in the past. And I was chagrined when I came to faith to learn of a mentality that I think often gets circulated in the church, where real Christians don’t get depressed. Which is really unfortunate, and I think is a very myopic view of the truth that we are all fallen in sin. Like, we are living in that now-but-not-yet space, where we’re redeemed, right? But Christ hasn’t returned yet, and so we’re still living in a sinful, sin-stricken world. And, I mean, if you look to the Bible itself, David went through periods of deep, dark despondency. You know, there is a biblical precedence for struggling with disorders of mood. That is there. There is a historical precedence. We think about all the saints who’ve come before us, like Charles Spurgeon, who wrestled mightily with depression. And to just dismiss it as a malady of faith, I think is overly simplistic, and I think has real potential to shun and to shame and silence the people who need the church and the body of Christ and the love of Christ most. Meaning those who are downcast, those who might know the truth of the Bible, and then know, you know, cognitively the truth that they are saved, but they can’t feel the import of that gift in the moment when they’re struggling with darkness. You know, so I think viewing depression as one more mode of suffering, and that the role of the church should be to come alongside and love people, rather than to stigmatize and to criticize, is really important.
Amy Sloan: Yeah. What are some of the Psalms that have been especially encouraging to you or to others? Because I know that so often we go to the Psalms, and we think of the beautiful, like, oh, the Lord is my shepherd, you know, which is also very good, and that is a wonderful place of comfort. But to remember that we can pray some of those more, the Psalms of Lament as well.
Kathryn Butler: Yeah, I was just, that’s exactly what I was going to say. To me, actually, the Psalms of Lament are very comforting, which you wouldn’t normally think, but it’s because the Psalmists have such very vivid language for their agony. And when you’re in the midst of depression, you can identify with that, but there’s always this turning that you see in the Psalms, where they’ll be crying out to God, saying, why have you, like, I think of Psalm 22 is one of the ones that I always go to. Why have you forsaken me? My bones are out of joint, you know, I’m poured out like wax, like this imagery that just captures that you’re to the end of yourself, and you see no way out of the darkness, but always then turns to, yet you are holy, you are enthroned on our fathers of Israel, and then climaxes in this wonderful pointing to the Messiah, that he has done it, and we will praise him. So there’s this turning all the time. There’s lament, and then there’s turning to remembering what God’s done, and who he is, and then praising him for it. And I think that that exercise can be really vital, because very often, again, you don’t trust yourself. You know what the Bible says, and you know you’re saved, but you cannot feel the import that God loves you. But looking back to what he’s done, looking back to what he’s promised, and cleaving to that, I think can be life-giving in depression.
Amy Sloan: And there in Psalm 22 as well, we realize that Jesus took some of those words himself. Yes. So, I mean, I’m getting goosebumps just thinking of that. Like, Jesus himself was lamenting, right? And so we have a high priest who can sympathize with our weakness. He’s been tempted. He was never, he never sinned, so he did it sinlessly. He lamented sinlessly, which obviously is impossible for us, but he knows our weakness. He knows our frame, and he loves us, and he’s experienced that for us. It’s just amazing.
Kathryn Butler: Right, right. Absolutely. And this is in those dark moments. It’s like, well, Jesus knows what this is. He’s been there too. He understands, you know? So especially since in depression, one of the main things is you feel so alone and so isolated. And because it’s hidden, you feel like you’re going through it in isolation. You’re scared to say anything to anyone because they’ll shame you. But to know, like, Christ knows, you know? And God loves us so much. He gave his son for us, and that son knows and still laid his life down. It’s just, yeah, it’s the cross is just so life-giving in so many ways.
Amy Sloan: Yeah. Well, if someone is listening, and maybe they’re like, wow, this is what I’m experiencing, or maybe they haven’t felt like they could talk to someone, or they’re not sure even how to express how they’re feeling, do you have any kind of words of advice or suggestions for some good first steps?
Kathryn Butler: Oh gosh, yeah. So I always still would recommend, if you feel comfortable seeking out the pastor of your own church, I always think the local church is always the best place to find support. If for whatever reason that’s not the case, there are some online resources. So there are the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation, CCEF, has an online repository, a search engine, where you can find a Christian counselor in your area. Anchored Hope is also another ministry that offers counseling specifically from a Christian standpoint, and they also, it’s online. So those are two places that you could go if you’re seeking actually any kind of counsel. I still always would say go to your own pastor first, if you feel comfortable doing so, and you have that good relationship, just because they know you, and they’re walking with you, and they’re ministering to you day-to-day. And in terms of resources, there’s a wonderful book by Zach Eswine called Spurgeon Sorrows, and it talks about Charles Spurgeon’s own walk with depression and his struggles. That is a wonderful book. Todd Peppercorn, who is a Lutheran pastor, put out a book about his struggles with depression that’s very, I think, very helpful. It’s very stark, because he was hospitalized, actually, so it’s, but it also, you know, kind of breaks down this notion that Christians don’t struggle with this, and it’s, he’s from a pastor. And then, of course, there’s my own, it’s a booklet that I had, that TGC put out last year, and it’s called What Does Depression Mean for My Faith? That’s a good place to start, too, in terms of it gives a lot of resources and an understanding of some of the neurobiology of depression, the fact that it’s complicated, it’s that there’s biochemical components, but also social components that can trigger things. It’s just complicated. So it goes through some of that background to have an understanding of depression, and then hopefully offers some tips and some resources to guide you.
Amy Sloan: Those are all great, and I will put the links to the resources you mentioned in the show notes for this episode, for sure. If someone either is thinking that maybe a friend seems extra down, more than just a little sad or temporarily blue, or if someone is the recipient of a confidence, of someone sharing their heart with them, what advice would you give for those of us who are wanting to encourage someone who is struggling?
Kathryn Butler: Yeah, I, first of all, I would want to caution and prioritize when you hear that somebody’s down, make sure that they’re not suicidal. And I think that we get very leery of bringing that up because we think we’re going to plant the idea in their heads. But research actually does not pan that out. So if you have any inkling that somebody is struggling with depression, ask. Say, have you had thoughts about taking your own life? Most people, if they are, they’re actually relieved that somebody has brought it up, is what we found. And then from there, try to get a sense. If they admit and say, yes, I am, you need to really diligently figure out how urgent is this concern. So somebody who says, yes, I am, and I’ve got a plan, and I intend to, you can’t leave that person. You need to get that person to help. Take them directly to the emergency room. Call the Suicide Crisis Lifeline. I don’t remember the number right off the top of my head. I apologize. No, I’ll find it and put it in the show notes. Yeah. And stay on the phone with them, and they’ll give you directions about what to do. If not, so if someone says, maybe I actually have had some thoughts of my life ending, but it’s more what we call passive suicidal ideation. So it’s thoughts of, I just want to go to bed and never wake up, that kind of thing, or I just want it all to end. But there is not an express plan, intent, or means, means meaning, I’ve got the pills, I’ve got the weapon, et cetera. Then in that situation, you still want to get them help. It doesn’t need to be done emergently, but you still want to try to help them then and there and say, you know what, I’m going to try to help get you an appointment to see a counselor. If they don’t have those feelings, then you’re dealing with somebody who has depression. I would still say, offer to get help with them. Too often, you know, we’ll give advice and then leave someone who, depression is part of the disorder, is they struggle with concentration and motivation, right? And so where you’ve got somebody who is having a hard time just doing the basic activities of getting out of the house in the morning and taking care of themselves, right? That suddenly is a real struggle. And then we expect them to get on the phone when they’re already feeling guilty and having these feelings of worthlessness and call somebody for an appointment. That’s a lot to place on somebody. So what I would actually recommend is if you have somebody who’s admitting to this, just like we were talking about the ministry of presence, partner with them, you know, talk with them, let them share with you, pray with them and over them, but then offer to get help for them. Say, you know what? I’ve got this list of Christian counselors. Let’s go through it. I’ll help make the phone calls for you, you know? Offer to take them to that first appointment if they want to, just to be a presence so that they’re not dealing with this alone.
Amy Sloan: That’s such a good encouragement because obviously one of the lies of depression is you’re all alone. Yeah. And so we know we’re not. If we are in Christ, he never leaves us. But sometimes we need that visual reminder of the person who is acting and showing us right there with our physical eyes, right? And when our mind is confused and our hearts are confused and we can’t really feel like the Lord is still with us, sometimes just a real person who’s right there with you, reminds you, you aren’t alone. And we all need to be reminded of that. Exactly. Well, this has been a very encouraging conversation. I hope that this is an encouragement to those who listen. And it can be something that they can share with friends who are struggling or give them an encouragement to reach out if they’re struggling as well. But here at the end, I am going to ask you the questions that I ask all of my podcast guests. And so the first is just, what are you personally reading lately?
Kathryn Butler: Sure. So our family, we do, like I know a lot of families do morning basket and we kind of do the same thing. We have read alouds in the morning. So my son, who’s 11, is reading aloud to the rest of us the last book of the Vanderbeekers series. I’m reading to them, Jared Kennedy has just put out a wonderful middle grade biography on Martin Luther. That is excellent. I can’t recommend it highly enough. He does such a fantastic job of capturing, he doesn’t elevate Luther into sainthood like some books do. He talks about his tendencies to be really, really harsh in his criticism and some of the other points that show that he was fallen just like we all are. But he does a fantastic job, which is what I really love, of parsing the theology and really expounding upon the different things that Luther was objecting to when he looked into scripture. I can’t recommend it highly enough. And then, so over the Christmas break, the kids finished their co-op and so there’s some of their classes they didn’t have work to do. So I said, well, what should we do differently? What should we add? And they wanted to read aloud a Shakespeare play every morning.
Amy Sloan: I love that. Did you know our family’s like huge Shakespeare nerds?
Kathryn Butler: Yes, I saw that you guys were doing like the next space of a year, you went through all the plays. So we just did a comedy of errors and then the kids didn’t want to stop. So we’re finishing up Macbeth. I love it. My nine-year-old daughter was down in the basement pretending to be Banquo’s ghost, knocking on the door and going, woo
Amy Sloan:. Oh my goodness. I love that so much. You can never have too much Shakespeare.
Kathryn Butler: Oh, exactly. It’s so good. And honestly, he does such a good job capturing sin and showing its consequences and showing how you can’t escape from it. It just highlights why we need Jesus.
Amy Sloan: Exactly. And then his villains too are not just all bad. You recognize yourself in his villains as well, which I think is very important because if you have a good anthropology, you’re going to realize we don’t have these saints and then the bad guys. We’re mixed bag.
Kathryn Butler: Yeah, yeah. Wonderful that you’ve had the same delight from them. We’ve loved it.
Amy Sloan: Oh, that’s great. All right. Well, the final question is, what would be your best tip for turning around a homeschool day that seems to be going all wrong?
Kathryn Butler: Depends on what time of year it is. I think the very best thing, number one, to do is actually stop and pray. And I had to do that this week where it was not going well and I started to get frustrated and they started to get frustrated. I had to stop. I’m like, you know what? We’re going to pray together. And that’s number one. And number two, so if we’re having a difficult time like that, we’ll usually, if the weather permits, it doesn’t right now because we’re in New England in January, but we’ll do something outside. We’ll stop everything and say, let’s go outside. Let’s be together. Let’s be a little bit silly and frivolous and enjoy steeping ourselves in God’s creation, reminding ourselves of what he’s done and that he’s the artist over everything and that whatever we’re wrangling with is not that big of a deal. Yeah, life is bigger than the math workbook, right? Yeah, right. What do you guys do?
Amy Sloan: Oh, a lot of times we’ll do crazy dance, put on crazy music and we’ll just dance around or taking a break. Sometimes, you know, it’s that wisdom. Sometimes you have to persevere and keep going even when it’s hard and then sometimes you’re just like, you know what? That’s the end of math today. Math has been the issue this week in our house. That’s why I keep bringing up math, but it could be anything. Sometimes you’re just like, nope, we’re going to keep going. It’s hard, but that doesn’t mean it’s bad. We have to keep persevering. And other times you’re like, that was enough. The math will be here tomorrow. We’re going to put that on the shelf.
Kathryn Butler: Right. When you had asked earlier about the challenges, I think that’s one of them is having that discernment to say, when is persevering going to be helpful for them in terms of training them and guiding them? And when can you say, okay, you know what? It’s all right. We can take a break. And knowing when to push and when not to, I think is a challenge. I know. And then you’re like,
Amy Sloan: I think I probably did a lot of that wrong. I made the wrong choice, but God’s grace is sufficient there too, right? Where can people find you all around the internet?
Kathryn Butler: Sure. So I’m actually not on social media. I have found this is just me personally. It is a stumbling block for me. And so I do have a blog. So the blog is katherinebutler.com, very innovative. And you can follow me there. You can actually reach out to my publicist on there too, if you need to want to get in touch with me, which I’m delighted to do. Most of my books were published by Crossway and I write very frequently for Desiring God and TGC. So my name will pop up on those sites also. But I’m delighted to dialogue with anyone.
Amy Sloan: Yeah. I will have links to those things in the show notes for this episode over at humilityanddoxology.com, as well as all the resources we discussed previously. If you have enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you took a moment to share it with a friend. You can take a little screenshot right there in your podcast app and send a text or share it to your social media, or just tell a friend word of mouth. It’s a great way to encourage others by sharing about this podcast. And I look forward to chatting with you again. And I think, well, perhaps by the time this goes live, the book may have already be published, but my daughter has pre-ordered the next book in your Dream Keeper Saga series. So we’ll be looking forward to that and your other books coming out this year. Wonderful. Thank you
Kathryn Butler: so much, Amy. This has been just a delight.
