Science is more than just a collection of facts and theories; it’s a dynamic story of discovery and innovation. And, ultimately, science leads us to worship our Creator in deeper ways. In my recent conversation with nuclear chemist (and homeschool science curriculum author) Dr. Jay Wile, we delve into why a chronological approach to teaching science can offer a richer, more integrated learning experience. By exploring the lives and contributions of key scientists through history, we not only understand scientific concepts better but also appreciate the development of human knowledge. Homeschooling parents seeking to inspire a love for science in their children will be encouraged and equipped by this episode.
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Dr. Jay Wile and Homeschooling
Dr. Wile’s journey with homeschooling began when he was a professor at Ball State University, where he encountered exceptional students who were homeschooled. One such student, who demonstrated deep, critical thinking about complex equations, revealed that his mother had taught him at home, despite not having a college education. This experience piqued Dr. Wile’s curiosity, leading him to research homeschooling and to discover that homeschool graduates often excelled in university settings. Over time, he began speaking to homeschool groups, eventually writing science curricula specifically for homeschoolers.
Dr. Wile’s personal connection to homeschooling deepened when he and his wife adopted a teenage girl and decided to homeschool her. Although their daughter initially resisted the change, she later expressed gratitude for the education she received at home, realizing how it set her apart from her peers. His experience has given him a unique and multifaceted perspective on homeschooling, both as an educator and a parent.
Over time, Dr. Wile’s view of homeschooling shifted from focusing primarily on academics to recognizing the deeper value of the parent-child relationship that homeschooling fosters. While his initial focus was on providing his daughter with strong academic and spiritual foundations, he found that the most significant benefit was the time spent together and the close bond that developed as a result. Engaging in discussions on topics that naturally came up during their studies, he was able to understand and connect with his daughter in ways he wouldn’t have otherwise. This experience deepened his appreciation for homeschooling, seeing the relational aspect as the core strength.
Science Education: Curiosity and Wonder
Dr. Jay Wile reflects on how his interest in science began and how his perspective on both science and education has evolved over the years. Initially, his curiosity in science was sparked by a natural inclination toward understanding how things worked, which led him to pursue a career in nuclear chemistry. His experience as a university professor further fueled his interest, especially after encountering exceptional students who were homeschooled, which opened his eyes to the effectiveness of home education.
Should Christians be afraid of science education?
Dr. Jay Wile addressed the perceived tension between science and Christianity. He shares that in his youth, he was an atheist and viewed atheism as an intellectual stance. However, his views began to shift after attending a debate between a Christian and an atheist, where the Christian, who was also a scientist, presented the idea that to be truly educated, one must consider perspectives from all sides. This encounter sparked his interest in both science and Christianity, challenging his preconceived notions. As he explored books on the relationship between science and faith, he discovered a new depth to science that was far more engaging than what he had experienced in school. This growing curiosity led him to further explore chemistry, and eventually, to pursue a career in the field.
Dr. Wile explains that his journey into Christianity was gradual, moving from intellectual curiosity to a deeper spiritual belief. As he studied science in university, his Christian faith continued to grow. He notes that contrary to the common belief that science and Christianity are incompatible, his studies revealed that Christianity offered a rational framework for understanding the world. He emphasizes that challenges to his faith during his time at a secular university helped him grow spiritually, particularly with the support of a Christian fellowship group. This fellowship played a critical role in helping him navigate the intellectual and spiritual challenges of university life.
Dr. Wile encourages Christian parents not to fear sending their children to secular universities, as long as the students are connected to a strong Christian community. He believes that a vibrant spiritual life can thrive in even the most secular environments, as long as students are part of a supportive fellowship. He contrasts this with the assumption that attending a Christian university guarantees a strong faith, warning that without active spiritual engagement through a local church or ministry, students can still lead a life disconnected from their faith, even in a Christian academic setting.
What is the relationship between science and Christianity?
Dr. Jay Wile emphasized that science and Christianity are not at odds but rather deeply interconnected. From an academic standpoint, he explains that the scientific method itself owes much to Christian theology. He references the work of Robert Grosseteste, a Bishop of Lincoln in the 11th century, who advocated for a systematic method to study God’s natural world. This approach was later developed by Roger Bacon, who outlined the importance of testing hypotheses through experiments. According to Dr. Wile, this historical link between Christian theology and the birth of modern science shows that the two have coexisted and supported each other throughout history.
On a personal level, Dr. Wile encourages Christians not to fear science, as it is the study of God’s creation. He asserts that engaging in scientific inquiry is a way of exploring the wonders that God has made for humanity. He explains that while nature is corrupted due to the fall of man, it still reflects God’s majesty and power. He quotes Blaise Pascal, who remarked that nature has both perfections and defects, which reflect its status as an image of God, albeit a marred one. This understanding of nature should fill Christians with awe rather than fear, as it presents an opportunity to see God’s handiwork in the intricacies and beauty of creation.
Studying science can lead to a sense of wonder and doxology—a response of praise to God. As Christians explore the complexities of the natural world, they are reminded of the even greater majesty of the Creator. Scripture itself declares that nature speaks of the glory of God, and science serves as a tool to understand and appreciate this glory more fully. Through scientific study, Christians can deepen their faith and admiration for God, as the more they learn about creation, the more they are drawn to worship the Creator.
How can homeschooling parents teach science well?
Dr. Jay Wile offers several helpful strategies for homeschooling parents who may feel unequipped to teach subjects like science. He first acknowledges that many parents feel this way because their own science education was lacking. However, rather than viewing this as a reason to avoid teaching science, he encourages parents to approach the subject with curiosity and a willingness to seek out resources.
One of the key strategies he suggests is finding a curriculum that provides support. Many homeschool curricula, including his own, offer question-and-answer services to help parents when they encounter difficult material. This allows parents to guide their children through topics they may not fully understand themselves.
Beyond the curriculum, Dr. Wile emphasizes the importance of exposing children to real-world experiences. He shares the story of a student who became a marine biologist after a hands-on encounter with a whale biologist. These kinds of experiences, whether through museums, field trips, or interactions with professionals in your community, can spark a deep interest in a subject. Look within your congregation or social circles for scientists, engineers, or other experts who might be willing to share their knowledge with your children.
Homeschooling offers so much flexibility. Take advantage of opportunities for experiential learning, even if it doesn’t align perfectly with your current curriculum. Field trips, hands-on activities, and exposure to different people and professions can enhance a child’s understanding of science in a way that textbooks cannot. Homeschooling allows for learning that is driven by curiosity and the joy of discovery, without the pressure of fitting everything into a rigid academic structure.
Ultimately, Dr. Wile encourages homeschooling parents not to be afraid of science but to approach it as an adventure—one where both parent and child can learn together through a combination of structured curriculum and real-world experiences.
A chronological approach to elementary science
Dr. Jay Wile chose to take a chronological approach when writing his elementary science curriculum based on his desire to present science as a dynamic, evolving process. Initially inspired by a request from My Father’s World to fill a gap in a creation-based science curriculum, he and his wife worked on a hands-on curriculum focused on the days of creation. After enjoying that process, Dr. Wile decided to continue developing the series but opted for a unique chronological format rather than organizing by topics like botany or astronomy.
He explains that one of the key reasons for this choice was to illustrate how science has progressed over time. By presenting science in the order of discoveries, students can see how ideas were refined and built upon by subsequent generations. This approach shows that science is not a set of fixed facts but a process of inquiry, where early theories—often wrong—are slowly corrected and improved.
Dr. Wile highlights that teaching science chronologically also emphasizes the tentativeness of scientific conclusions, demonstrating that even widely accepted theories can be proven incorrect over time. He believes this gives students a more realistic understanding of how science works and fosters a sense of humility about current scientific knowledge.
In addition, this method can be easily aligned with a chronological history curriculum, allowing students to experience the science of the era they are studying in history. Dr. Wile points out that tying science to history helps students see the connection between scientific discoveries and the cultural, philosophical, and historical context in which they were made.
Ultimately, Dr. Wile chose this approach because it not only makes science more engaging but also teaches important lessons about the nature of scientific progress and the human experience behind scientific discovery.
Is science important for teens who aren’t pursuing STEM?
Dr. Jay Wile believes it’s crucial for teens to have a solid science foundation, even if they don’t plan to pursue a STEM career, because exposure to science can unlock unexpected interests and opportunities. He emphasizes that students often don’t know what might captivate them until they experience it firsthand, and this exposure can lead to surprising career paths, as was the case for both himself and others he has encountered.
Dr. Wile shares his own story of transitioning from an aspiring actor to a PhD nuclear chemist, illustrating how interests can change dramatically. He also recalls meeting a violinist who became a physicist after being intrigued by how violins produce sound, as well as a science illustrator who became successful in her field due to the science background her homeschooling mother insisted on.
He argues that students should be exposed to biology, chemistry, and physics in high school because these three disciplines cover the broad strokes of science and provide a well-rounded foundation. Even if a student doesn’t complete all the courses, as his daughter didn’t with physics, being exposed to the subjects is essential.
Dr. Wile underscores that science enhances understanding across various disciplines and can benefit students in unexpected ways, like the science illustrator whose knowledge allowed her to excel in art related to science. Science is part of a broader picture of learning, and students who limit themselves to just their areas of interest miss out on potential opportunities and a fuller understanding of the world.
Key Takeaways:
- Role of Parents in Science Education: Homeschooling parents may feel ill-equipped to teach science, but they can overcome this by using good curricula and leveraging local experts, museum trips, and other hands-on learning opportunities to spark their child’s interest in science.
- Importance of Hands-on Learning: Science doesn’t need to strictly follow a curriculum. Parents can take advantage of real-world experiences, such as museum exhibits and meeting professionals in the field, to make science engaging and relevant for their children.
- Benefits of a Chronological Approach to Science: Dr. Wile’s elementary science curriculum is structured chronologically to show the progression of scientific thought and how each new discovery builds on the work of previous scientists. This approach helps children see science as a dynamic, evolving process.
- Learning from Historical Scientists: Understanding the history of science through the lives of great scientists helps children appreciate that scientific discoveries are built on collaboration and refinement of ideas over time, often showing that widely accepted ideas may still be incorrect.
- Exposure to Diverse Scientific Ideas: Chronological science learning demonstrates how science has evolved from misconceptions, such as the belief that the liver produced blood, to more accurate understandings over time. This approach also teaches students the tentative nature of scientific knowledge.
- Connection Between Science and History: The development of scientific ideas is deeply intertwined with history, philosophy, and cultural movements. Studying science chronologically allows students to see how scientific advancements influenced and were influenced by the times in which they occurred.
- Encouraging Exploration of Different Fields: Parents should provide their teens with a solid science foundation, even if the student isn’t pursuing a STEM career. This broad exposure could spark unexpected interests and future career paths, as in the case of the violinist turned physicist and the science illustrator.
- Cross-disciplinary Benefits of Science Education: Knowledge of science deepens understanding across disciplines, such as art, illustrating that a well-rounded education includes exposure to various fields. This approach prepares students for opportunities that merge their passions with science.
- Flexible Homeschooling Structure: Homeschooling allows for a flexible structure where children can pursue hands-on opportunities that may not perfectly align with their current curriculum but provide invaluable learning experiences nonetheless.
- Importance of Community and Resources: Homeschooling parents can tap into their communities, including local experts, field trips, and professional organizations, to fill gaps in their knowledge and expose children to new fields of interest.
- Science as a Process of Refinement: The chronological approach to science emphasizes that science is about refining ideas, not always arriving at immediate “truths.” Students learn that scientific understanding evolves, and current scientific knowledge is often a stepping stone toward further discoveries.
- Science Fosters Critical Thinking: A solid foundation in science, even for non-STEM students, promotes critical thinking and a better understanding of the world. It helps students recognize the evolving nature of knowledge and the connections between different fields of study.
Listen to the full podcast episode “Homeschool Science for Every Student with Dr. Jay Wile” on Homeschool Conversations with Humility and Doxology
Dr. Jay L. Wile holds an earned Ph.D. in nuclear chemistry and a B.S. in chemistry, both from the University of Rochester. He has won several awards for excellence in teaching and is an internationally-known speaker, having presented lectures on the topics of Nuclear Chemistry, Christian Apologetics, Homeschooling, and Creation vs. Evolution in several different countries. He is best known for his award-winning K-12 science textbooks designed specifically for the home school.
Find Dr. Jay Wile Online:
Book Dr. Wile mentioned: Coming to Faith Through Dawkins
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Check out all the other interviews in my Homeschool Conversations series!
Amy: Hello friends. Today I am joined by Dr. J. L. Wile. I am so delighted that he is here today. He holds an earned PhD in nuclear chemistry and a BS in chemistry, both from the University of Rochester. He has won several awards for excellence in teaching and is an internationally known speaker, having presented lectures on the topics of nuclear chemistry, Christian apologetics, homeschooling, and creation versus evolution in several different countries. He’s best known for his award-winning K-12 science textbooks designed specifically for the homeschool. I was telling him here before the recording started that I remember using his chemistry and physics high school textbooks back in my own days as a homeschool student, and I’ll actually be using one of his elementary books this upcoming year with my two younger kids. It’s really a delight to get to chat with you today. Dr. Wile, that was like an official introduction, but can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, your family, how you first became interested in homeschooling?
Dr. Jay Wile: I became interested in homeschooling because I was a professor at Ball State University, which is in Muncie, Indiana, and I ran into these students who were just, head and shoulders above the rest. I remember the first time I found out that one of them was homeschooling, I was sitting in my office hours, and hardly any students ever come to your office hours, but this student comes to my office hours and he’s a student I recognize as one of my top students that year, and he sits down and he opens up his book and he points to an equation called the Gibbs free energy equation, which is a pretty difficult equation to use. I figured he’s going to ask me, how do you use this equation and problems and so forth. He said, I’ve used this, I’ve done all the homework and I understand the equation, but I’ve been thinking about what this equation means. Suddenly, like all the gears in my head just stop, because I have this student who’s in my office who’s actually been thinking about an equation. We have one of these 45 minute discussions that every professor dreams of, talking about the real detail of what that equation really means. At the end, I said, well, you’re obviously one of my best students, and you must have had a really good chemistry background in high school. Where’d you go to school? He looked at the floor and he said at home. To me, because I knew nothing about homeschooling, that meant that he was too sick to go to school. I said, oh, so you had a tutor work with you between your teacher to keep you up with the students. He said, no, my mom taught me. I looked right at him and I said, so she’s a nuclear physicist then. He said, no, she never went to college. That was my first experience with a homeschool student. That got me interested. I started doing a little research into what the educational literature said about homeschooled students. The educational literature said my experience was, even back in the early 90s, which is when this was, my experience was pretty common that homeschool graduates make better university students. To this day, they still do. That’s what got me interested in home education. What’s funny about that is I started speaking to homeschool groups, mostly back then it was how to get your kids into college because that was difficult in the 90s. One reason that we at Ball State had a lot of homeschool graduates is Ball State University of all the Indiana universities had the weakest interest requirements. They were the fallback school for a lot of students. For homeschool they were the one that would actually accept them. That’s what I was mostly doing. Then I got convinced to write curriculum and so forth. I spent a couple of years doing this and then suddenly my wife and I adopt a teenage girl who had been going to public school her entire life. We actually, once we first were her temporary guardians, we couldn’t do anything with her education. Once we adopted her, then we pulled her out of school and homeschooled her the rest of the way. That’s when I really learned about homeschooling. Now, once again, this was in the 90s. She’s an adult and married and she and her husband own a shipping business and so forth. She’s an adult now, but she did not want to be homeschooled the entire time. Shortly after she went to university, she actually thanked us for homeschooling her because she saw what that had given her compared to most of her peers.
Amy: That is such a fun story. I love every bit of that. As a second generation homeschooler, I’ve had little moments like that myself where I’ll be speaking to a doctor. This was a funny thing. I’m using anatomical terms for certain bones of the body and things like this. They’re like, oh, do you have a medical background? I’m thinking to myself, no, I just learned a lot of really great songs when I was being homeschooled. As you’ve been in this homeschool world now for the past several decades, has your thoughts about home education grown or deepened over the years? What changes have you seen?
Dr. Jay Wile: Yes. I’ve seen changes in homeschooling itself, but my thoughts of homeschooling have changed as well. When we adopted our daughter and we homeschooled her, she had a really terrible home life before us. She was one of these kids that when things were going well, she learned, and when things weren’t going well, she didn’t learn. She had a lot of holes. Basically I did sort of what I called educational triage with her. I just tried to fill in the holes and make it possible for her to be successful and so forth. Actually homeschooling her changed my views of homeschooling a lot because when I went into homeschooling initially, and even when I started homeschooling my daughter, it was all about academics. It was all about making, obviously the fact that we wanted to raise her as a Christian and the school wasn’t doing that was a big deal. My focus was academics. By the time we got done, she had done really well academically and so forth. What I realized was the real benefit to homeschooling was the relationship I had with her. Because in the end, because my schedule was more flexible than my wife’s, she was a research scientist at a pharmaceutical company, I was a professor. As a professor, I could sort of make my schedule and so forth. I was principally in charge of her homeschooling. My wife says all the time that she wishes she could have done more of the homeschooling because she sees that we have a relationship that’s different from my daughter and her relationship just because we spent so much time together. I learned stuff about her that I otherwise never would have learned. When you’re sitting at the table, you don’t talk about things like the Magna Carta. When it’s a part of history, you do. As a result, you learn things about your child you otherwise don’t learn. To me, now that I’ve done all of that, and I’ve looked at things over the years, to me, the fundamental aspect of homeschooling is not the academics. It’s the relationship. The academics are going to be better. The data are really clear on that. That’s not the main reason you homeschool. It’s not even the spiritual side. The spiritual side is really important. You can do that by doing a Christian school, doing serious Bible study at home and things like that. Even if your child’s in school, you can support them spiritually. Just spending so much time with them, talking about things you otherwise would never talk about. because we homeschooled, and I was used to reading to her, reading certain things to her, paragraph here or there. We got to the habit when she was driving, when we would travel, she liked to drive, I would read to her. Just read aloud while I was in the passenger seat. That sparks the relationship you otherwise don’t have. Because now you’ve got this shared story you’re experiencing. You talk about that shared story. All of those aspects sprung from homeschooling. If I hadn’t homeschooled, I wouldn’t have the close relationship we have now.
Amy: I think that idea of relationship being the real gift in many ways, the strength of homeschooling has been crystallized for me over this past year. Of course, that’s something I’ve said many times. Over the past year, my youngest son has leukemia. There’s been a lot of hospitalizations and treatments and not very much academics. We’re a family that loves academics. We love rigorous learning. That just wasn’t able to happen this year. To see the value, to see it not as a wasted year, not that it hasn’t been hard and disappointing in many ways, but to see it as still being a successful homeschool year, because we were able to still be together. We were still able to share the stories, to be able to have conversations and still learn too. To have that time together is really precious.
Dr. Jay Wile: Yes, absolutely. Then I’ve seen homeschooling change as well over the years, because when I started in homeschooling, it was not only mostly Christians, which it still pretty much is, but it was mostly the very conservative side of Christianity. It wasn’t unusual to see a lot of hair buns and hair covering some denim jumpers and things like that. Nowadays you don’t see a lot of that. It’s a much more sort of quote-unquote relaxed environment. What I really see is the second generation, I don’t know if this is true for you, but the second generation homeschoolers that I see mostly, they’re significantly less interested in dogma. Back in the early days, I would get curriculum thrown back into my face when they saw that I wasn’t quoting from the King James Version AV 1611. Now I haven’t just experienced that in years. Because for whatever reason, I think at least from the standpoint of rigidity, homeschoolers are less rigid than they used to be. I think that’s a positive thing. Now, I do think that there has been some secularization of home education that I don’t like very much. I think that within the Christian home education world, I do think it’s become a little less rigid, which I like.
Amy: Yes. Oh my goodness. I feel like that could be a whole other podcast episode because I have some thoughts about all of those things. I do want to dig down a little bit specifically in the issue of science or the topic of science, not the issue. Of course, you are a scientist. You’ve written all these wonderful science textbooks. I’m curious, first, in your own personal experience, what first sparked your curiosity, your interest in science, and then how your perspective has grown and changed over the years?
Dr. Jay Wile: I was part of that generation where the educational psychiatrists or psychologists thought that they could give you a test when you were six years old and it would determine what you were going to do when you were growing up. I dutifully took that test as all of my first grade companions did. It was said that I was going to be a scientist. They tracked me towards science. I honestly didn’t like it very much. I did it because, you really didn’t have a choice. you couldn’t opt out of this stuff. I didn’t really like it that much. However, when I got into the later years of high school, I was an atheist. I was proud of being an atheist because I really thought that atheists were smart. Smart people were atheists. Of course, I thought I was a smart person. I wanted to be an atheist. A girl who I was trying to date, who never wanted to date me, took me to a, that’s an interesting story of itself, but still good friends. She took me to a debate between an atheist and a Christian because she was a Christian and she thought it was weird that I was an atheist. That atheist, a Christian debate, the Christian was actually a scientist. In my head, and, we all look at our past in a very selective way. In my head, I think that’s the first time I actually met a scientist who was a Christian. He suggested some books towards the end of the debate about science and how that relates to Christianity. Basically he threw the gauntlet down as far as I was concerned, because he said, if you want to be an educated person, you have to look at things from all sides. If you haven’t looked from the Christian side, then you don’t really know. That was a challenge to me. I read some of these books and that’s what got me interested in the science because the science that I was being given there wasn’t the boring stuff that I was learning in school. It was really interesting things about very detailed aspects of nature and how things are perfectly balanced in nature and everything. That was interesting to me, but still wasn’t interesting enough for me to go into it as a career. I started my life as a professional actor. That’s like, for example, Man of La Mancha over there, Sweet Charity over there. These are plays I’ve been in since I’ve been an amateur. I started my career as a professional actor. After about a year, realized that wasn’t for me. During that year, and I think this is what really sparked it. It’s a long story, but what really sparked it was, while I was an actor, I had to do stage magic. It was like, I played Dracula and Dracula, and I had to like, look at a cigarette and light it. I played the thing I remember most was Pilot and Jesus Christ Superstar, where I have to put my hands in this glass jar that’s transparent and perfectly clear. As soon as I put my hands in there, the whole thing turns red. That was all chemistry, I didn’t really understand the chemistry, but I knew I was playing with chemicals and so forth. When I decided acting wasn’t for me, I said, well, I’ve had fun with doing this chemistry on stage. Why don’t I study it? Then when I got to university, of course, the science you learn there is radically different than the nonsense you learn in high school. In the end, that got, that got me really interested. I probably would have never gone into chemistry if it hadn’t been for my stint as an actor.
Amy: That is such a creative backstory. I would never have guessed that it was acting that led you to nuclear chemistry.
Dr. Jay Wile: Yes, I tell people I used to be a professional actor, but then I made the next logical step and became a nuclear chemist.
Amy: That’s hysterical. Okay, so were you a Christian then already as you began your studies at the university? How did that affect the way you thought of science then?
Dr. Jay Wile: Yes, my private study, my private study of these books and so forth led me to the belief that actually Christianity is the most rational way to look at things. Of course, that’s in your head. What changes your soul is what’s in your heart. It took a while for it to travel from the head to the heart. That was one reason I left acting was because I was flirting with Christianity during this stage. The professional theater world, especially at least back then and probably more now is so incredibly just narcissistic and hedonistic and, oh, and you saw the consequences of that lifestyle. Since I was seeing, Christianity as a reasonable alternative, I thought, I think I’d have a better life outside of this hedonistic culture and so forth. I, by the time I actually went to college, I was a Christian, but I was a young Christian with all these crazy ideas about what it means. believe it or not, I actually had the belief, I had the sincere belief that God would never let me believe anything that was really wrong. You forgot about that little thing about like original sin corrupting the whole man. I had these, all these crazy ideas, but I see, I went to a secular university, but I grew incredibly spiritually. Part of the reason I think is because I had to address these challenges that were constantly being brought towards me. I didn’t do it alone. I was a part of a Christian fellowship group called the InterVarsity Christian Fellowship Group. I had upperclassmen who had already faced a lot of these questions helping me out and so forth. When my daughter went to a secular university, I said, that’s fine if that’s the university you want, but you’re going to have to be a part of a regular Christian on-campus fellowship because you have to have some way of supporting, your spiritual life.
Amy: Yes.
Dr. Jay Wile: I think that’s really important.
Amy: It is. My oldest son is going into his second year at a secular university, but has a wonderful Christian campus ministry as well as a local church. I’m very thankful for that.
Dr. Jay Wile: I think that’s by far more important than what the university is teaching. you can have a vibrant spiritual life in a ridiculously secular college as long as you’re plugged into a really alive campus fellowship.
Amy: On the flip side, I think sometimes parents think, oh, I’ll send my kid to a Christian school and they’ll be fine. If you’re not being fed spiritually at, as a member of a local church, I don’t know that you can still live a very pagan life at a Christian school.
Dr. Jay Wile: You can.
Amy: Before I go off on another tangent, I think many Christian parents do have this idea, they fear science. Which makes me think back to your, experience before you had seen this person who was actually smart and a scientist, but who also believed in God, like how can that happen at the same time? I think sometimes Christian parents, I see some fear around finding, I know, a good science curriculum or talking to their children about science as if science and Christianity can’t really coexist, or there’s just some fear there. What would you say? How would you explain the relationship between science and Christianity and how we can approach science as an opportunity for doxology and for learning more about who God is?
Dr. Jay Wile: There are two sides to this. One is the academic side. If you look at the history of science, if it weren’t for the church, we wouldn’t have the science we have today. We’d have something, but it wouldn’t be anything like the science we have today. The reason we have the scientific method is because in the year 1000-ish, the Bishop of Lincoln said, basically, we’ve developed this thing called theology, which is a method by which we study God’s revealed word. Now we have to develop a method to study God’s natural word, his creation. Grostest never really did much with it. He suggested some things, but one of his predecessors took that to heart, not predecessors, one of the subsequent generation, took that to heart, Roger Bacon, and he wrote a huge book that was supposed to just be an introduction to a bigger book that never happened. Part of that huge book, a section of it was called the New Experimental Science. Basically he laid out the idea. It’s not enough just to come up with an explanation. You then have to figure out how you can experimentally test that explanation and how that explanation needs to be verified by experiment. First time ever someone laid it out like that. It was because it was motivated by theology, really. It was the theology of the natural world. There’s no reason to think that Christianity and science can’t coexist. We see people today, one of the world’s greatest synthetic organic chemists of all time, James Tour, says he prays whenever he comes up with a result he doesn’t understand. He actually says graduate students bring a result to me. We don’t understand it. We’re both baffled. I pray about it and I ask the Lord to illuminate, and it happens. The idea that Christianity and science can’t coexist is really silly. Now, from a personal side, the way you should look at science isn’t as some academic exercise. It’s actually studying what God has made for you. You shouldn’t be afraid of that. You shouldn’t be afraid of studying God’s creation. It comes from God. Now it’s been corrupted. Blaise Pascal, another brilliant scientist, said that “nature has some perfections to show that she is the image of God and some defects to show that she is only his image.” I love that because that’s the way we should look at nature. We can see the power and majesty of God in science as long as we understand that it is a corrupt version of the original creation.
Amy: Yes, you shouldn’t be afraid of it. I’m going to have to find that and print it out.
Dr. Jay Wile: Yes, it’s in his book. It’s called Pensées, which is French for thoughts. It’s just, it’s a bunch, it’s 150 or 300 pages of just thoughts. They’re deep thoughts. I teach a master’s class where we study the great scientists of the past and his work is one of the ones we study because he was so important and so influential. Yes, he’s got other great quotes, but that’s probably my favorite quote about nature.
Amy: I think also as we know from scripture that nature is declaring the glory of God, right? I think that so many times as I’m studying science and you just realize the intricacies and the beauties and you’re filled with wonder and it leads to praise because this is the author of what we’re learning about is even more incredible than the creation, right? The creator. I think that’s such a gift that science can give us. Yes, absolutely. If a parent is maybe unsure or feels ill-equipped to teach science or maybe any other subject, we all have that one subject that we get a little nervous trying to homeschool, what would be your tips for a parent who’s trying to provide a good education to their children on a subject like science maybe they don’t know a lot about?
Dr. Jay Wile: Yes, and I think being afraid of science isn’t really a reasonable thing. Now, to be worried that you’re not equipped to help your child learn science, that’s reasonable. most likely I could say categorically that most people’s science education was really poor.
Amy: Except for mine, obviously, because I used your books.
Dr. Jay Wile: That’s right, exactly. I think, what passes for science in most of our public schools, a lot of our private schools, is just really nonsense. I can understand feeling ill-equipped. The way you do that is the same way, let’s suppose your child wanted to figure out how to make an engine work or how to fix an engine. What do you do? Yes, you find somebody who knows about engines and you get them together and you try and get them to show your child what’s going on there. I think you could still do that with science as well. Now, it’s a little more difficult because you’re not going to know a scientist necessarily. I think what you can do is you can obviously find a curriculum that meets your needs and helps you. For example, our curriculum has a free question-answer service, so you can always get answers to your questions. A lot of homeschool curricula have that. Also, I think you need to be on the lookout for things, for ways to introduce your child to these people, these scientists. Let me tell you, I love this story. This student who used my books now has a master’s degree in marine biology. I asked him, what made you choose marine biology? He said, if he thinks back, his mother was just looking in the paper and noticed that there was a whale biologist who was going to come to their city. That’s on the coast to speak. She didn’t know anything about marine biology, but she thought, okay, this is science. My kid seems to like science. Let’s go hear this professor, this marine biologist. They get there. They’re the only ones there. The marine biologist is on top of a whale, standing on top with a chainsaw, cutting into his head, into the whale. The whale’s dead, obviously. The guy looks right at the student and says, you want to come up here? Of course, you ask a kid who likes science, you want to come up on this dead whale and look inside? Of course, he’s going to say yes. He climbs up. Yes. He says, if I had to point to one thing that made me decide on marine biology, it was that experience. Not just that this guy was wielding a chainsaw on a whale, but that he got to see a whale’s brain and different aspect, different organs in the whale and so forth. I think that’s what you need to do if your child likes science. First of all, check your people in your congregation, the people in your friend’s circle. Do a scientist, an engineer? Doesn’t matter if it’s exactly what the kid’s interested in. If it’s science, you might learn something. I don’t know about other scientists, but whenever anyone asks me, do you want to, spend a few hours talking science with my son or my daughter? Yes, absolutely. because that’s my passion, right? I think you can do that. You can also look for opportunities like, local museums often have hands on time. It doesn’t matter that it fits into a curriculum or anything like that, you’re homeschooling, Two hours at a, at a museum where you watch somebody, do something, some experiments or whatever, that’s your chemistry lesson for the next couple of days, right? I think that’s what you do. You fill in your weaknesses with a good curriculum, but also with these extra opportunities that are out there.
Amy: I loved that you brought up that it doesn’t have to fit specifically the subjects that you’re, the topics you’re learning about in your science curriculum. Much of homeschooling, like one of the joys of it is we have so much extra freedom and flexibility in our schedule. Just be able to expose our children to new things. You never know, that mom would probably never have guessed that was going to spur her son’s, curiosity and interest in that particular topic. The more just hands-on opportunities, the more they’re exposed to different kinds of people pursuing different, areas in science or other topics as well. There’s so many even professional organizations. I know in our area, I did a field trip, hosted a field trip where some of the architects from like the local professional architect organization from many different companies, they’d come and do these free programs for students, which is applied physics, and in many ways. They, my husband is an engineer. He loves going over and talking to us about bridges. I have a friend at our church who’s a botanist. He brought a research botanist and he let us bring a few homeschool kids into the lab at the university and do things. There’s so many creative things you can do and it doesn’t have to, count for something. You don’t even have to put it on the transcript or write it on a list. You can just do it for fun because learning is awesome.
Dr. Jay Wile: Yes. You asked me earlierhow things that change, my view of homeschooling has changed. That’s something that changed. I was so worried about educational triage with my daughter. I didn’t spend a lot of time thinking about getting her out to see things. When I was, when we were, she was 20 years old, we were driving through town and we passed this dairy that’s been in the town for generations. I said, I said, have you ever gone into that dairy and had a tour? She said, no. I thought I’ve had, I had her in homeschool for three years and I didn’t think to take her on a tour of the dairy. I scheduled a tour of the dairy to adults. The person was a little, a little weirded out at first. This isn’t a school. No. Just the father and his daughter.
Amy: They’re never too old for a field trip. They’re always fun.
Dr. Jay Wile: Yes. That’s one thing I would change now. I would once again, get rid of the strict academic timelines and all that and spend a lot more time going out and seeing real things, real educational stuff.
Amy: I think that also makes children more interested when they’re reading than a text and they’re, because they understand that this isn’t just words on a page. These are not just sort of esoteric ideas, but these are things that affect, our life and they’re things you can see and touch and taste around them too. I mentioned earlier, I’m going to be using one of your elementary books this fall with my two younger kids. One of the things that I haven’t seen with any other science curriculum is you have chosen to do your elementary curriculum in a chronological form. Instead of it being topic like, botany, astronomy, or whatever, it’s actually organized chronologically the lives of the scientists. I was wondering if you would explain to us why you chose to take that approach for your elementary science books?
Dr. Jay Wile: This actually goes back to a group called My Father’s World, which I don’t know if they’re a homeschool curriculum group. They have this real knack for finding out of print books and getting permission to print them again and so forth. They had this book that was out of print, had permission to print it, but then suddenly they were going to, they, the, whoever owned the copyright said, no, you can’t do that anymore, change of ownership or something. They needed something to fill that place. It was basically science ordered by the days of creation. I admire both David and Marie, the people who own that a lot. When they asked me, do you think you could write something like this? I looked at, I said, I don’t do, I’ve done any elementary, but sure, I’ll take a look at it. I decided that it had to be something hands-on because it’s little kids. My wife and I, because she’s a, she’s a physicist, my wife and I spent time thinking about experiments we could do and so forth with the kids and everything, and had a blast doing the six days of creation and an experiment for every lesson and everything. When that got done, I thought, I’ve enjoyed this and I really enjoy working with my wife on these experiments and so forth. I could probably keep going. I initially thought maybe I should do topics, but then I thought, everybody’s done topics and the days of creation are the beginnings of history. Why don’t I just keep going? I had studied, I for a long time had been reading the great scientists of the past. I knew a lot about how science developed in those thinkers. I knew how influential the church was and all of that. It was fairly easy, at least to start, especially science in the ancient world, which is the first book after science in the beginning. That was stuff I knew pretty well, because this is the, this is where science really had its foundations. We continued working on it and I enjoyed once again, working with my wife on these experiments and so forth. I enjoyed filling in my holes because I had read, Newton and Ptolemy and Copernicus and so forth, but I had never read Vesalius who is, and that was a little later, but nevertheless, I’d never read Vesalius who is, one of the most important anatomists in history. It was, fun to read those scientists I hadn’t read yet as a part of doing this book or doing the series. I just enjoyed it enough. I kept going.
Amy: Do you think that it’s something that would be best then to coordinate with the history you happen to be studying as a homeschooler or does it not really matter as much?
Dr. Jay Wile: I think there are two sort of benefits. If you do it actual chronologically, the major thing is how science works, because science is the story of one person coming up with an idea that’s almost totally wrong and subsequent people refining that so it’s closer and closer to accurate. If you do it chronologically, that. we, for example, it was thought for hundreds of years that the liver made the blood and it was delivered to the tissues and consumed by the tissues. That was all the way to the 1600s that, so, when Vesalius’ great work of anatomy, he doesn’t have the heart in his drawing of the circulatory system because the heart wasn’t part of the circulatory system. It’s part of the nervous system. It actually gave you movement because nobody saw that the veins and the capillaries were connected. It took a mathematician, well, it was a doctor, but he used mathematics to calculate how much blood would have to actually be made every day in order for this to happen. He said, this is crazy. Nobody can eat this much food, In the end, it’s neat to see how that develops from, very long ideas to closer and closer to correct ideas. That gives you, besides seeing the process of science, it also shows you how tentative science still is. Vesalius was as certain today as Fauci was about his ideas of medicine, and we now know they were both wrong, right? In the end, I think, it shows that science is very tentative. Now, the other benefit is if you don’t do it that way, and you actually tie it to your history spine, then you’re actually experiencing the science of the time of history you’re studying. There’s benefit to that too. I think either one of those works, I think mostly depends on how important the history spine is to you. If the history spine is really guiding everything, then yes, you should correlate. The website for Brain Builders actually has a place, if you go brainbuilders.com slash history, it shows you all the major history spines that like story of the world and mystery of history and all that, and shows you where our lessons line up with their lessons. you can do it that way if the history is really important to you.
Amy: Yes. I think it’s really fascinating to see the history of science because you also see how ideas have consequences, right? you don’t just have these sort of, well, this scientist was just over here in isolation doing his thing that had nothing to do with what was going on in the world around him, right? how it’s really real people and ideas and movements of philosophy, and then how people who come after are impacted by those who came before. You said, it gives us a healthy dose of humility as we approachour science studies.
Dr. Jay Wile: The other thing you’ll learn is how sort of arbitrary some of this is. Aristotle came up with the geocentric view of what he called the universe. In roughly the same time period, just shortly after, a guy by the name of Aristarchus had a heliocentric view. His view is more correct, but nobody listened to him. Why? Because Aristotle was considered so much smarter, That all of the time. We believe someone, not because his view is necessarily any better based on the data. It’s just, he’s considered more competent for some reason.
Amy: Okay. As we think about then moving into the older teens, as we’re thinking about what to prioritize in their education, I could imagine someone saying, well, my kid isn’t really a science kid. They’re not going to go into a STEM field. I’m not going to really prioritize science in their high school. How would you reply to that? Do you think it’s still important to have a good, solid science foundation, even if you’re a liberal arts kid?
Dr. Jay Wile: I was an actor, and now a PhD nuclear chemist. I don’t think there’s any way that. I remember back when I was getting my PhD, we graduate students had to go to these seminars where people would come in and tell us the research they were doing. They flew in this guy to talk to us about Stradivari instruments. He was doing research to see if there was anything objectively that you could set a Stradivari instruments apart from everybody else. He was using a lot of the same techniques that I was experienced with that had nothing to do with music. Afterwards, I asked him, what in the world made you want to do this? It turns out he had a story similar to mine. He studied violin at the Eastman School, which is one of the finest music schools nation, sat second chair in a major orchestra, and then at one point got some book at a secondhand bookstore about how a violin actually makes its noise. He knew the basics, obviously, but he didn’t know the details. He loved the book, but there were aspects he couldn’t understand. He enrolled in a community college physics course just to get enough to understand the book. Then a few years later had his PhD. That’s amazing. You really don’t know what’s going to turn your student on. If you don’t expose it to them, you’ll never know. What you have to do is you have to at least let them experience it in some way. I say a goal for every parent is by high school, by the end of high school, student has to have had biology, chemistry, and physics, because those are the three broad strokes of science. Now, my daughter did not finish physics. She got about halfway through it before she graduated. She didn’t finish, but nevertheless, she was exposed to it. I think that’s important because you never know what’s going to really turn your student on until they actually experience it.
Amy: There are so many connections between the disciplines, among the disciplines, and it deepens our understanding of one as we learn about something else. I think we hamper ourselves. We really starve ourselves if we only focus on our area of interest and don’t think we need to worry about anything else, because we’re going to only have half of the picture of what’s going on.
Dr. Jay Wile: I know another person, she’s a science illustrator. She is so good, she can charge $100 an hour for what she does. She says the only reason she can really illustrate, she was interested in art, wasn’t interested in science at all, but her mother, homeschooling mother, made her do biology, chemistry, and physics. She knew enough about the science that when someone tasked her at first, hired her freelance to do this series of anatomical drawings. She basically knew it already, she just had to look out some details, and as a result, she could do it much better than most artists. That is really cool. Yes, so now she charges $100 an hour.
Amy: I picked the wrong profession. Podcasting doesn’t pay that well. Oh, Dr. Wile, this has been so great to be able to chat with you today. Before we wrap up, I want to ask you the questions that I’m asking all of my guests this season. The first is just what are you personally reading these days?
Dr. Jay Wile: I just finished Coming to Faith Through Dawkins. I don’t know if that book, but it’s basically people for whom the mega new atheist Richard Dawkins was fundamental to them converting to the faith. That’s the power of the Spirit right there. He can speak through Dawkins. He can even speak through Dawkins. That was a really good book. I’m currently, because of the political situation, I’m currently just started Hillbilly Elegy. Since J.D. Vance has just been nominated, I wanted to get his view, and I hear it’s a really good book, but I’ve just started it, so I can’t really say anything about it.
Amy: I put that on hold at my library as well. I got to get my research done. Yes, exactly. The final question I have for you is what would be your best tip for dealing with a homeschool day or a homeschool season that seems to be going completely off the rails?
Dr. Jay Wile: Okay. I would strongly recommend getting out of the house more, and so doing more field trips and things like that, because part of the reason it’s maybe going off the rails is you’re stuck in some routine that’s not enjoyable for anyone, and even just doing the same thing you’re doing reading, but doing it under a tree at a park rather than in your house. Just get out, do field trips, get into new locations. That can spawn, more interest. Also, the big thing, man, we homeschool because we recognize the weakness of the school system, and yet what do we do? We bring the school system home. Get rid of the idea that you have to cover this, this, and this. a good homeschool year is when your kids learn a lot of good stuff that’s challenging but not overwhelming. That’s a good homeschool year, whether it’s, whatever, whether it’s following any curriculum or not. You’re educating your child to become a real adult, and any education that furthers that goal is positive.
Amy That is such a good encouragement. Dr. Wile, where can people find you all around the internet?
Dr. Jay Wile: I have, my publisher is bereanbuilders.com. The Bereans were the folks that Paul said were wiser than the Thessalonicans because they actually searched the scriptures to make sure what he was saying was true. That’s the people we want to build, so bereanbuilders.com, and that’s where you can find all of my books and so forth. I also have a blog, blog.drWile.com, and it’s D-R-W-I-L-E. I don’t update it a lot, but I do update it occasionally when I find something of interest.
Amy: Okay, and I will have links to those things in the show notes for this episode over at humilityanddoxology.com. Those of you who are listening, please make sure to take a moment to subscribe, to leave a rating and review in your podcast app, and if you’re watching on YouTube, make sure you’re subscribed there as well so you don’t miss any future Homeschool Conversations episodes. Until next time, happy homeschooling.
