Classical Education, Homeschooling, and the CLT exam

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In the world of homeschooling, the debate between individualized education and standardized testing often sparks passionate discussions. In today’s podcast episode, I sat down with Regina from the Classic Learning Test to learn more about classical education, homeschooling, and what sets the CLT apart. Discover how the CLT aligns with a customized learning experience, why it’s essential to understand standardized tests even in a homeschool setting, and how preparing for the CLT can enhance critical thinking skills.

Table Of Contents

Regina's background with homeschooling
Homeschooling Provides a Personalized Education
Homeschooling has its challenges…
Classical Education and Hillsdale College
Is homeschooling for everyone?
Standardized Testing and the CLT (Classic Learning Test)
How does the CLT compare and contrast with other standardized tests?
How to Prepare for the CLT
Key Takeaways
Listen to the full podcast episode “Classical Education, Homeschooling, and the CLT with Regina Gravrok” on Homeschool Conversations with Humility and Doxology
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Regina’s background with homeschooling

Regina Gravrok shares her journey as a lifelong homeschooler, recounting her experience growing up in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. Initially skeptical about homeschooling, her mother changed her perspective after meeting a homeschooling family whose children demonstrated remarkable kindness and maturity. Impressed by their character, Regina’s mother decided to homeschool her children, eventually embracing the approach for all four siblings. Regina thrived in this environment, completing her K-12 education at home and graduating early while participating in extracurricular activities. She reflects on the common misconceptions about homeschooling and enjoys connecting with others who have had similar experiences.

Homeschooling Provides a Personalized Education

Regina Gravrok highlights several cherished aspects of her homeschooling experience, emphasizing the deeply personalized nature of her education. She appreciated how homeschooling allowed for a customized approach tailored to her individual strengths and weaknesses, a benefit she values even if it meant facing challenges head-on. This close, personal environment facilitated significant growth, both academically and in character development. Regina notes that while the constant interaction with family brought its own set of difficulties, it ultimately fostered a richer educational experience. She reflects on how this intensive, relational learning process aligns with her college’s motto, “strength rejoices in the challenge,” recognizing the profound rewards of overcoming these personal educational hurdles.

Homeschool Conversations podcast Classical Education, Homeschooling, and the CLT exam Regina Gravrok

Homeschooling has its challenges…

Regina Gravrok discusses the challenges of homeschooling, particularly the daunting task of customizing education amidst countless options. She acknowledges the intimidation parents feel when faced with the responsibility of tailoring their child’s education, fearing that any missteps might hinder their child’s future success. Despite these concerns, Regina emphasizes that the real benefit of homeschooling lies in its flexibility and the opportunity it provides for personal growth, both for the student and the parent. She highlights the value of trial and error, noting that even mistakes can lead to valuable learning experiences. Ultimately, Regina reassures us that the process, though challenging, is inherently fruitful and offers numerous ways to succeed in nurturing a well-rounded individual.

Classical Education and Hillsdale College

Regina Gravrok reflects on her educational journey, noting that her early exposure to classical elements—such as a strong focus on literature, Latin, and structured learning—was more intuitive than explicitly classical. Her mother incorporated these practices based on community feedback rather than formal classical education principles. Regina’s formal encounter with classical education came during her time at Hillsdale College, where she gained a deeper understanding of its principles, including the pursuit of the true, the good, and the beautiful. This experience helped her frame her previous education and gave her a structured vocabulary to articulate these concepts.

Regina describes Hillsdale as a pivotal moment in her educational journey, providing her with the tools to synthesize and communicate her understanding of classical ideals. She appreciates how the college’s emphasis on universal values and diverse yet united community enriched her perspective on education and human experience. The structured approach at Hillsdale helped her see how classical education’s principles could be applied to foster a meaningful and cohesive educational environment, both personally and within a broader community context.

Is homeschooling for everyone?

Regina Gravrok shares her perspective on homeschooling, emphasizing its universal applicability but acknowledging the practical challenges involved. She argues that while homeschooling can be a viable option for everyone, its implementation varies based on individual circumstances and family needs. Regina underscores that homeschooling in the early years primarily involves nurturing emotional development and basic life skills, which can be naturally integrated into family life without extensive lesson planning.

As children grow older, homeschooling can become more complex, requiring significant time and resources from parents. However, Regina notes that increasing support systems, such as online classes and co-ops, make it increasingly feasible for families. She stresses that while not every family may choose or be able to homeschool, the approach is adaptable and can be tailored to fit diverse situations. Her message is one of encouragement, highlighting that with creativity and community support, homeschooling can be a meaningful and achievable option for many families.

Standardized Testing and the CLT (Classic Learning Test)

Regina Gravrok explains her perspective on standardized testing within the context of a customized education. She acknowledges the apparent contradiction between advocating for individualized learning and working with standardized tests but provides a nuanced explanation that bridges the two concepts.

On the practical side, Regina emphasizes that standardized tests are a reality in today’s world. They are often required for college admissions, state homeschooling regulations, and career advancements. Being familiar with this aspect of education helps students navigate these requirements and prepares them for high-stakes testing environments, reducing stress and improving performance.

Ideally, Regina argues that if education aims to expose students to timeless truths and foster critical thinking, standardized tests can reflect this. She notes that the CLT (Classic Learning Test) aligns with this ideal by focusing on critical reasoning and problem-solving rather than rote memorization. The CLT’s verbal reasoning section, for instance, involves interacting with classic literature, fostering an understanding of complex ideas and their implications—skills crucial for a well-rounded education.

The math section of the CLT emphasizes logic and problem-solving, reflecting the broader educational goal of teaching students how to think critically about the world. Regina believes that true education involves not just acquiring knowledge but also learning how to engage thoughtfully with it.

Regina sees standardized testing not as an antagonist to individualized education but as a tool that, when used wisely, can complement a well-rounded educational approach. The CLT, in particular, strives to balance the practical aspects of standardized testing with the idealistic goals of critical thinking and virtue, providing a comprehensive framework for evaluating education.

How does the CLT compare and contrast with other standardized tests?

Regina Gravrok highlights key similarities and differences between the CLT (Classic Learning Test) and more familiar standardized tests like the SAT and ACT:

Differences:

Content Focus:
- CLT: Emphasizes great texts of the Western tradition and critical thinking. It focuses on engaging with influential texts and ideas from the Western canon, which are seen as foundational to understanding Western intellectual and cultural heritage.
- Traditional Tests: Often align with Common Core standards and focus on a broader range of content that may shift over time based on educational trends and standards.
Testing Environment:
- CLT: Designed with homeschoolers in mind, allowing students to take the test online and often at home. Tests are proctored by parents for most levels, reflecting a trust in parental involvement and the home education environment.
- Traditional Tests: Generally require testing at designated centers. They may not always accommodate the flexibility needed for homeschool environments, though online options are becoming more common.
Educational Philosophy:
- CLT: Aligns with the idea of education as exposure to and engagement with enduring texts and ideas, aiming to foster deep critical thinking and reasoning skills.
- Traditional Tests: Focus more on measuring knowledge and skills based on current educational standards, which can sometimes prioritize test-taking strategies over deep engagement with content.

Similarities:

Purpose:
- Both types of tests aim to assess students’ readiness for higher education and their ability to handle academic challenges. They serve as benchmarks for evaluating educational outcomes.
Skills Assessed:
- Both the CLT and traditional tests assess critical reasoning and problem-solving skills, though the CLT places a stronger emphasis on these areas through its focus on classic literature and foundational ideas.
Standardization:
- Both types of tests aim to provide a standardized measure of student performance, which can be used for comparison and college admissions. The CLT’s approach to standardization, however, integrates traditional content and critical thinking more prominently.

Regina’s explanation underscores the CLT’s commitment to blending the benefits of traditional content with a focus on critical thinking, making it distinct from more conventional standardized tests while maintaining some similarities in purpose and assessment.

How to Prepare for the CLT

To prepare for the CLT, focus on providing a quality education that emphasizes understanding concepts and critical thinking rather than rote memorization. Use the free online practice tests to get familiar with the test format and practice time management. Develop efficient problem-solving skills and learn to handle difficult questions by making educated guesses and moving on. View standardized testing as a tool to gain insight into a student’s progress rather than a high-pressure situation, and use the results to adjust your educational approach as needed.

Key Takeaways

Homeschooling’s Universality: Homeschooling can be a valuable option for everyone, though it may vary in its practical application depending on individual circumstances and needs. It offers a customizable education that can adapt to each family’s and child’s requirements.
Personal Experience and Humility: Regina acknowledges her lack of personal experience as a homeschooling parent, but values the educational insights she’s gained from her own experience and those of others.
Integration of Family and Education: In younger years, homeschooling focuses on integrating family life with learning, emphasizing personal development and emotional understanding over formal academics.
Challenges and Flexibility: Homeschooling requires time and commitment, but modern resources and community support, such as co-ops and online classes, make it increasingly accessible.
CLT’s Focus: The Classical Learning Test (CLT) emphasizes critical thinking and reasoning skills, using classic Western texts rather than common core curriculum, which helps students engage deeply with significant ideas and texts.
Standardized Testing Reality: Despite Regina’s focus on individualized education, she sees standardized testing as a necessary part of the modern educational landscape. It helps provide a benchmark and is required for various educational and professional milestones.
CLT’s Distinctive Features: The CLT differs from traditional standardized tests by its content focus on classical literature and critical thinking, and it’s designed to be accessible for homeschoolers with online and parent-proctored options.
Preparation Strategy: Effective preparation for the CLT involves a solid educational foundation and practicing with sample tests to improve time management and problem-solving skills. Understanding test-taking as a skill rather than a stressor is important.
Educational Tool: Standardized tests should be viewed as tools to gain insights into a student’s learning progress, not as definitive measures of their worth or success. They offer a broader perspective that can inform educational adjustments.
Homeschooling and Testing Balance: Balancing the needs of individualized education with the realities of standardized testing can enhance the credibility and effectiveness of a homeschool education, aligning it with broader academic standards while preserving its personalized approach.

Listen to the full podcast episode “Classical Education, Homeschooling, and the CLT with Regina Gravrok” on Homeschool Conversations with Humility and Doxology

Regina Gravrok works as the Homeschool Partnership Manager at Classic Learning Test (CLT). She currently lives in Denver, CO, where she moved after graduating from Hillsdale College with a degree in English. Unsurprisingly, she loves all things outdoors—hiking, camping, and climbing—and all things literary—linguistics, reading, and tea. She is always happy sharing about her time as a homeschooled student and discussing the conservation of tradition through education and community.

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Amy: Hello, friends. Today, I am joined by Regina Gravrock, who works as the homeschool partnership manager at the Classic Learning Test, or CLT. She currently lives in Denver, Colorado, where she moved after graduating from Hillsdale College with a degree in English. Unsurprisingly, she loves all things outdoors, hiking, camping, and climbing, and all things literary, linguistics, reading, and tea. Regina is always happy sharing about her time as a homeschooled student and discussing the conservation of tradition through education and community. Regina, I am delighted to have you here today. That’s like the official bio, but can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your family and your own experience with homeschooling?

Regina: Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much, Amy. I’m really excited to be here today. I was homeschooled all the way through. I did K-12 with my family. I was raised in Wisconsin, so on the west side in Eau Claire, if anyone knows that area. It was an interesting start to homeschooling for my parents. My mom was anti-homeschooling at the beginning. She had all the stereotypes. She completely thought homeschoolers were crazy and only people who wanted to keep their kids sheltered from the world would homeschool. Then she met, upon moving to Eau Claire, she met somebody who actually later on became one of her best friends. She was a homeschooling mom. Her kids were just so kind and well-adjusted. They included my older brother, so my mom’s son, her first son. They included him at a local cookout, even though they were much older kids. My mom was just so impressed by the kids’ maturity to include somebody else who isn’t in the same age bracket. He didn’t know how to play baseball, but they were like, come on, anyway, we’ll teach you how. She went over and introduced herself to the mom and said, your kids are wonderful. Where do they go to school? They have such good manners. They’re so kind. I want my kids to be like them. Especially at that time, homeschooling was not nearly as popular as it is now, which is great to see that it’s becoming more popular. The mom was actually a little bit hesitant to share. She’s like, actually, well, I homeschool my kids. My mom had to completely undo all of her pretty negative stereotypes about homeschooling. Maybe this is the way to go. Maybe this is a great way to care for your children’s character, not just their education. That made up her mind. She started homeschooling my brother and then homeschooled the rest of us. There’s four of us total. I’m the youngest. She did various amounts of homeschooling with each kid based on personality and how well they worked. Some kids wanted to go more like a public or private school once they got into high school. For the sister right above me and then myself, we both just worked really well in homeschooling. We really thrived in that environment. I did homeschooling all the way through to the senior year of high school. I finished out full. I graduated a little bit early, like usual for homeschoolers. I still did four years of high school and all the bells and whistles with extracurriculars and everything.

Amy: It’s always fun to talk to a fellow homeschool graduate. I was homeschooled from kindergarten through twelfth, as was my brother. Then my husband was homeschooled up through seventh grade. It’s always fun. I like to be like, we turned out okay. We’re a little quirky. Quirky is more fun.

Regina: I love the conversations with people who are just, they’re just not familiar with homeschoolers and I don’t blame them for it. When they find out that I’ve been homeschooled, I get the comment, and I’m guessing you’re probably in the same boat too, you get the comment of just like, oh, well, you seem really normal. It’s like, oh, thank you. That’s a not normal thing to say to somebody’s face, but I’ll take it.

Amy: Regina, what were some of your favorite parts of the homeschooling experience?

Regina: Yes, so many. I know it’s different for each kid. I think I really lucked out just, I had a great family to be around all the time. I love spending time with my family, being around my parents and my siblings. I think my favorite part was just how customized the education was, the fact that it was an education for me at every step of the way. That was both for, honestly, in some ways, pros and cons for younger me, because my mom knew exactly what I was capable of. Which meant you weren’t allowed to do anything less than exactly what you’re capable of, which looking back, so grateful for it. I’m so thankful that was the environment that I was educated in. Of course, in the moment, you’re a little frustrated about it at times. I think that was just simply the best thing for me to be able to be raised in an environment with like your educator actually knowing you as a person. On that very individual level, because then all of your strengths can be brought out and strengthened even more and capitalized on. Then all of your weaknesses, they don’t go hidden. You don’t get to just cover them up. Even weaknesses in character and your interactions with other people, all of that is called out by your family and your community because it is so close and it is so personal. That just means you have so many more opportunities for development. You don’t feel like you’re going unnoticed if there is something that’s lacking in your life. It’s noticed and it’s brought to the forefront and it’s dealt with. It’s a struggle, but I think it is such a gift to have that. It’s a challenge. I’m just thinking at Hillsdale where I went to college, the motto of Hillsdale is strength rejoices in the challenge. That is what homeschooling is. It is a challenge because it’s so personal and you don’t get to run away from it. The strength in you really rejoices in that.

Amy: Yes, sometimes I’ve talked about like the best part of homeschooling is that I’m with my children all the time. The hardest part of homeschooling is we’re always together all the time. Because you cannot escape, their sin, their weakness, or my own as the mom, right? That’s a gift because we’re educating the whole person, right? Not just the brain. Just like, okay, let’s warn some facts and send you home. You’re educating a whole person towards wisdom and the love of the Lord. Also that can be a challenge, I think that can be difficult because sometimes it would be easier to just ignore that part of human development. It’s also really a beautiful part of homeschooling. I agree. Do you think there are any other challenges of homeschooling that you experienced or you’ve seen as a homeschool student?

Regina: Yes, I think there are just so many options that a lot of people don’t know which direction to go in. Which can be a challenge. It’s very intimidating to have to actually customize your education or your children’s education. Because you just feel like there’s so many ways to go wrong. I think the beauty of homeschooling is it teaches you that there are actually so many ways to go right. There isn’t just one answer to it. There are things that could be better or worse. The mere fact that you are trying to customize an education to your child is already putting them at such a large advantage. I just think it’s intimidating to have all of that responsibility on you as the parent. Especially you’ve got like a whiz of a kid. You’re like, what if I don’t prepare them well enough? What if I’m not setting them up for success? I think we just see time and time again. The role of the parent is like the full development of the child. Both intellectually and emotionally and spiritually. That is terrifying. You do know that when you become a parent. That this is your child. To help them create themselves. Your job is to be there to help them create who they are as a person. Homeschooling just gives that back to you. No, this is still your responsibility. You get to stand by their side throughout this entire thing. With how many options there are out there, it can feel like you’re going to pick the wrong one. There is trial and error. I know that there were times that we tried things and we very quickly learned, okay, this curriculum is not for us. This extracurricular is not for us. We are not going to do it this way. Those, even the things you do wrong are still that learning opportunity when you have that mindset. All of this is just creation of the person. Sometimes you do things and you learn a lot about the person because you don’t want to do X, Y, or Z, All of it is fruitful in the end. I think it’s just very hard sometimes to remember that and keep that insight. When you are so, you care so much about what you’re doing. You’re forming your child. When that’s the end goal, you have insight. Sometimes it’s easy to get lost in the weeds of worrying that you’re doing all the small details wrong.

Amy: Yes, definitely. I was really excited to see that you had gone to Hillsdale. I had friends from my own homeschool years who went there. I know others who have gone since. I actually really enjoyed a visit there as a teen myself. I was curious if that was your first experience with a more classical education or if that had been part of your home education growing up. That was sort of like part one of my question. Then part two, just now that you’ve gone through those four years of learning, do you think that approach to education matters? How have you seen it impacting you?

Regina: Yes. As for whether classical education was part of my education younger, I always struggle with this question a little bit because I think it was in a way that I didn’t really notice. I think it was subtly woven in. By that is there was always an emphasis on reading really good literature and making sure that was always in the background. I did Latin as a kid, all the way through until high school when I switched to Spanish. We did grammar. We worked on memorization. I don’t know how much of that was necessarily intentionally classical, though, because at the time, I’m not quite sure my mom knew so much about like the classical education renewal movement. I don’t think it was nearly as established. More so what I think it was, is she was finding anecdotally from people in the community what was working really well for their kids. She started incorporating those things into her education. It just so happens that the things that were working really well for other people’s kids and what worked really well for her kids is what the classical education renewal movement champions, which is memorization and having structure and order to those first couple of years and then building on that with logic and critical thinking and then moving on to a rhetoric portion. In high school, I also did speech. I did NCSEA, which is a speech and debate forensics league that’s national. I only did the speech side of it. In a lot of ways, that was like the rhetoric extension. It all really retrospectively, I’m like, wow, that was very classical. I don’t know if it was ever intentionally with the label classical. It was when I went to Hillsdale that I started realizing that like classical education is a thing and what it means to be classically educated and what that looks like. I think it’s amazing. I think it is so worthwhile, so worth pursuing. I think there’s a very structured way of doing classical education, and that’s beautiful. There’s so much value to it. I don’t think it’s necessary to do it that way. I think the necessary parts of classical education, and I think a lot of people in the renewal movement would agree with this, too, is the sense of tradition of understanding, what is true, good and beautiful. Having those transcendentals in mind for your children’s education, both in the way you educate them and then also making sure that they recognize the true good and beautiful in the world around them. I think that is the most important thing. How that is manifested can be much more of an emphasis on like scolet and restful learning. It can be an emphasis maybe more on more structure. I think that comes down to more of the students’ temperament and how they respond to their education. When I went to Hillsdale, that was the first time that we really explicitly talked about the good, the true, the beautiful, what it means to be human, what is the human experience, what does it mean to be a good person, what does it mean to live in a good community and to have piety to your community and to the tradition that came before you. All of those things, like putting titles on these things that I just had vague senses of before but never were named. That experience was so formative to finally be able to have, boxes in which to put all of this information in formation and to see it all fit together like puzzle pieces. That’s really what Hillsdale was for me, was like completing the puzzle of all these little pieces that have been given to me throughout my education. Which is beautiful because now I actually have a way, like I have the vocabulary to talk about it. I have a sense of a way to communicate it to other people. I have a way to store that information in my mind with some structure so that when I’m educating my children, like I know what I want to come out of it. I have some of the tools to get there along the way. It’s beautiful because at Hillsdale, I think the benefits of it so fruitfully in the community on campus. There’s such a variety of people there, of backgrounds and worldviews and opinions. I think what unites us as a community was always values. Almost everybody shared the same values, like the love, the good, the true and the beautiful. I just have never been part of a community that was so united before while still being so diverse. That was so beautiful because you hear in classical education that when we’re talking about the tradition, we’re learning about what it means to be human, which should be then universal. We see so many different kinds of people living different kinds of lives. We’re like, well, how do we say anything about humanity as a whole if we’re all individual and we’re all so unique? I think at Hillsdale, it was beautiful to see so many unique individuals trying to live like the good life. What it like to live, what it means to be a good human. In all of their different ways, because everybody was doing it differently. It was manifested completely differently, but all united in purpose. You’re like, oh, this is what it looks like. This is what it looks like to be in a good, fruitful community where we’re all striving for the same thing, but each individual gets to do it in their own way.

Amy: I love hearing how you got a vocabulary. Language is so important, right? If you don’t have the words for something, you can’t really contemplate the idea, right? The only way to really deal with the idea is if you have the vocabulary. What you received in those years was vocabulary to be able to think, to even be able to think about the things that you sort of vaguely understood or felt. You weren’t actually able to think about those things until you had a vocabulary and a structure from which to address them.

Regina: Yes, that is so true. That’s one of the reasons I’ve always loved languages specifically. Because when you think about how much the vocabulary you have in your life influences what you are capable of thinking about, which means the more languages you learn or the way a language talks about a certain concept. I’m sure you’ve heard of the examples of the different words for love in Greek versus just the one word for love in English and how much more nuanced our exploration of love can be if we have more words for it and have a wider variety of that vocabulary. Each time I learn a new language and I find out they have something like that, where they have multiple words for our one English word, it just blows my mind of how much there is out there that I just cannot think about because I don’t have the language for it.

Amy: It’s a little bit humbling. Sorry. I was just going to say, my teen daughter and I really think that there needs to be multiple English words for the word friend. We’re so limited by having that one word in English. Oh, yes. It’s so true. Because it’s like, you think of someone who’s like your close, ride or die friend. you do anything for them. That’s different from the person that you’re like a colleague to. You don’t really want to use the word colleague because you are like their friend. It’s hard having that one word. It seems to cheapen or minimize a true, deep, rich friendship if just all of the connections you have are all friends.

Regina: Yes. Best friend sounds like so clicky and young. It’s also superlative. Then you feel bad if you have multiple best friends. I have never actually thought about that. I cannot agree more. If you guys come out with, new vocabulary words for friends, let me know and I’ll adopt them.

Amy: We’ll work on that. Regina, one of the things as we were preparing for this conversation, sometimes behind the scenes for those who are listening, sometimes I’ll ask my guests if they have any questions they enjoy answering. One of the questions that you said you enjoy answering was, do you think homeschooling is for everyone? I thought that would be a really interesting question to ask you in here before we move on to talking more about the CLT.

Regina: Yes. I do love talking about this. The reason I love talking about it is because I really do love having conversations about it. Because at this point, I only have my own experience. I have not educated children. I don’t have kids. I haven’t gone through what I know is a struggle of being a homeschool mom. I do know what it’s like to receive a homeschool education. I know what it’s like to have people, in my life, like my siblings, who didn’t homeschool all the way through. I don’t know what it’s like to actually put in the work. I say everything I say, I say with a caveat of, the humility of knowing that I haven’t done it. It’s very hard to tell somebody to do something that you yourself have not yet done. I do really stand by that principle that we, just as humans, are gifted with both the right and the duty to educate the next generation. That is just flat-out true. In all ways we live our lives, we are educating the next generation. By example, in our interactions, whether you’re a teacher or just, you work some random 9-to-5 job, every interaction you have with the next generation, you are influencing them and you’re educating them through your life. That’s something we can’t avoid doing. It’s part of our role as humanity is to pass on what it means to be human to the next generation. I think in everything, we are educators. When it comes to explicitly educating your children at home, I do think that is for everyone, but in different capacities. I’ll explain that. I think when it comes to, on the practical side, of just, when you have young kiddos, the biggest thing that they’re being educated in there is, to understand what it is like to experience a human life. The highs and lows, like how to handle emotions, how to handle pain, how to handle, jealousy and what it means to, own something or try to share it with somebody else. Those, that’s what we’re going through as little kids. Then learning to read. That’s, about it. Those are, the two things. I think it’s so important to be around a family and to be in a very safe environment when developing that personhood. That, if at all possible, being in a family environment in those young years ideally doesn’t take too much time for the parents because you’re not doing lesson plans. You don’t have a ton of information you need to give them. It’s just you need to experience life with them, to be a guide with them while they’re learning what it’s like to just live. Then as you get older, I think that’s when it starts to split off more so into the child’s temperament and their needs, and also especially the family’s time commitment. I understand, if you, because all of this is sort of the caveat of, we sometimes just have to work. There are financial burdens on families. If you have to work, it’s not like you’re failing as a parent because you can’t be there 24-7. If you have that small amount of time, being able to put it towards your children is, I think, one of the most important things we get to do. As kids get older, I think now especially, and I’m excited to see this get even better as years go on, there’s so much support for homeschool families that I think it’s becoming more and more possible for everyone to do it. I know in high school, I took a lot of online classes. I know people who do high school almost completely online, or they do it through co-ops, where one mom in a community will teach one class, and another mom in a community will teach another class. It’s, uniting everybody’s own abilities for the sake of the community. When you have that environment, it helps overcome so many of the barriers of, a parent’s lack of education, like not knowing how to teach Algebra 2 or something like that, while still allowing the child to have that at-home, in-the-family integrated experience. I think homeschooling is for everyone, for sure, in the younger years, as long as your circumstances allow for it. I think with community, your circumstances might always allow for it. I say that, I do want to cushion that, because I do not want any of this to be judgment on those families that do feel, that pressure between trying to provide for their family, and then also being around, and not wanting to maybe send their kids to daycare, but they have no choice, time-wise. I say it, so I don’t say it as a judgment, I say it as an encouragement of, it is, there are ways to make this work, and it is possible. If this is something that you really feel called to, that you feel like you want to give to your children, that you want to give to the world by educating and forming your children really well, there are so many ways. There are so many options and support for that I think the fear that comes along with it is understandable, but should not at all be the defining, that should not be the thing that has the last say. I do think it is for everyone. I think it may not necessarily be chosen by everyone, I think that’s fine, it’s not like a failure, but I do think it fits every person, because it is so customizable. You can make it work for your family, and for your children, and for their individual needs.

Amy: Here, there, just at the end, you were talking about the value of a customized education. I know you said that in your own homeschool experience, that was really valuable to you, so it might surprise people to find out you’re working with a standardized test. Yes. How did those two ideas go together?

Regina: Yes, that is a great question. I know, it’s funny, because I do so much harp on an individualized education, and then standardized testing seems to completely go against it. I know, I talk to so many homeschool families, they’re frustrated that testing even exists. They’re like, why should I compare my student to some national standard, if they really are an individual? Shouldn’t we just let them be educated on their own, and do with that what they will? In response to that, this is a two-part question. There’s a practical side, and then there’s an idealistic side. On the practical side, we live in a world that has testing. You could say a necessary evil, if you do want to term it as an evil. We have so many kinds of people interacting with one another through education, and even in the working world, that having some standard to which we hold them all just helps. It’s good to have a way to compare educations and backgrounds when you have such a variety. On the practical side, it’s there, it exists. To get into a college, you have to take a standardized test. In a lot of states, just to homeschool, you have to take a test. In a lot of careers, to get on to the next level, to pass, to get certified, you have to take tests. This is just one of the skills that your children need to be educated in. You need to take a test, so that it’s not the first time they ever take a test, when there are thousands of dollars of scholarships riding on it, or something like that. It’s just, on the practical side, it’s a practical skill in the world in which we live. On the more idealistic side, if you really do truly believe that there are good, true, and beautiful concepts that you want your children to be exposed to, if you truly believe that there is truth, and that there is knowledge, and that there is a level of development that each individual, on average, is capable of achieving through their education, that is something that you can conceptualize in a test. There is a lot that’s lost in standardized testing, I will admit that, because it does, it’s quite simplified. That’s something I think CLT does really beautifully, walking the line between those two things, that standardization, while also still maintaining the actual standard to which we want to hold our children. Why I say that is because CLT emphasizes critical thinking and reasoning skills a lot more than any regurgitation of knowledge, because our education will teach us so many different things, materially. Ideally, what education is supposed to be teaching you is how to think well, like how to educate yourself. There was a really, I wish I could, Dorothy Sayers has a really wonderful quote about how education, the purpose of education is teaching the student how to learn and how to teach themselves and anything other than that is not education. That’s a total paraphrase, of course, she says it way better than I do. I think that is so true that there are, what we want to get out of education is the ability to interact critically with information that is given to us. In the verbal reasoning section of the test, that’s what you’re given. You’re given a passage of classic literature, and it’s good quality literature, it stood the test of time. These are the writers and thinkers that have formed our Western identity for generations. Those are the people we want to be interacting with. If you can interact with them and understand what is being said and understand the consequences of what is being said, that is what it means to be educated. To be able to interact with multi-generations, including your tradition, including those who have come before you. Then in the math section, it’s checking the boxes of the standardized of like, what are you supposed to know for this grade level? There’s also such an emphasis on logic and problem solving, because that is also like that is the character of what mathematics is supposed to be. You’re supposed to understand what are the fundamental rules of the world in which we live and how can we use those rules and manipulate them to better understand the world in which we live. That problem solving, that logic aspect is true for all good education, and it’s not necessarily what curriculum you follow, but does your child know how to interact with their world? CLT really strives to balance those two things. In our mission statement, we talk about reconnecting knowledge and virtue. Both understanding what it means to just know what you need to know for your grade level, to check that box per se, while also understanding critical thinking and reasoning, like how do we interact with the world that we’re placed in? Because that’s not just a skill for standardized testing, that’s a skill for life as a whole.

Amy: I hear some differences then with the CLT and maybe the standardized testing we are more familiar with this focus on ideas, critical thinking, the ability to problem solve. Are there other ways in which the CLT is like similar or different to maybe what parents are more familiar with already?

Regina: Yes, the biggest difference by far is the content and the focus of that content, the fact that it focuses on great texts of the Western tradition. It’s not based on common core curriculum. It doesn’t change with time. That’s the great thing. The only thing is it’ll just be added to over time as our tradition continues to develop, but it’s not like anything’s going to be removed because it offends somebody. It’s like, no, if this is a thought that has influenced our Western tradition, even if we don’t agree with it, we should know how to interact with it. We want children to be interacting with those on the test. Then beyond that, I think, so obviously, yes, content, that’s our biggest thing. That’s the thing we really focus on. Then also we want it to be accessible, like we want it to be. It’s made specifically with homeschoolers in mind, that was one of the target audiences that we kept in mind the entire time we were developing the test. The constant checkpoint when we’re going back and expanding into private charter, public school spheres, we always want to make sure it works for those at home families. How that shows up is that our tests are online and they were online before the SAT or ACT ever developed an online version. You can take them at home so you don’t have to find a testing site. You can also replicate your educational environment because that will be your testing environment. Then all of the tests up through like excluding the college entrance exam are parent proctored as well, because we truly believe that parents are primary educators. They are fully capable of educating their children, which means they’re fully capable of proctoring a test. The exception to that is the CLT, which is the college entrance exam, because it has millions of dollars of scholarship riding on it. You get into a whole legal world there of having high stakes testing and parents proctoring. Maintaining an accessibility for homeschoolers and maintaining having a test that legitimizes that form of education. Whether we like it or not, tests set standards for education. When you have a test that has traditional content and emphasizes critical thinking and reasoning skills, it legitimizes an education that also prioritizes those things. We see that education so often in the homeschooling world. When you have a test that looks like a homeschool education, then you have even more credibility to a homeschool education.

Amy: What would preparing for the CLT look like then?

Regina: Ideally, that’s just having a good education. A quality education is the best preparation for the CLT. Having an education that asks questions, I think, is the best way to say it. Asking questions of what you read. Asking questions even of what math concepts you learn. Why does this work the way it works? Not just memorizing. Not just regurgitating what you intake. Actually truly understanding the concepts behind it. Then on the very practical side, for a lot of people, the biggest transition between any regular education and standardized testing is time management. My biggest recommendation is to take practice tests. We provide online practice tests for free for the CLT10 and CLT because we understand that this is a new experience for a lot of people and we don’t want that to be a barrier. Using those practice tests and just getting used to what it feels like, not only to reason, but part of really good reasoning is effective reasoning, which involves some time aspect. How quickly can you find the solution? Because part of finding the solution is figuring out how to work out the problem. It’s not just finding the answer. Finding the most efficient way to work out the problem and then finding the answer is a question of timing. Just understanding how to work through things quickly. Also how to leave things alone if you don’t know them. That also might be a big transition for a lot of people is there are questions on a standardized test that are supposed to be above your difficulty level. If you don’t know how to do them, take your best guess and move on. You just have to let go and you have to go on to the next section. I think those are good test taking skills to practice for taking the test, but also honestly good skills, in my opinion, for life in general. It’s good for us to know how to reason effectively and efficiently and quickly. It’s also really good for us to know how to let go of things that we might not be able to solve at that moment. There are bigger fish to fry.

Amy: Yes, I love that. I think that just points to test taking being a skill. That is a learned skill. Absolutely. While I don’t have personal experience with the SDLT, I had a really great experience standardized testing growing up as a home school student. I’ve taken those lessons as in our state we are required to do annual testing. Definitely have tried to pass on that really positive test taking experience to my kids because, my husband is an engineer. He had to take many tests just to get his certifications for different levels. you can’t just avoid tests just because you don’t like them. To have that as a skill, as a learned skill, is really important. I’ll put a link in the show notes for this episode, too, just to my more generic standardized testing prep post that I did, which has an apple puzzle. Because snacks are also very important on test taking days. You’ve got to have the fun snacks. That is so true.

Regina: That’s also such a good point, too. I think and this then very well, especially if you had a good relationship, like a good experience with testing. The testing is supposed to be a tool for the educator. That is that is the goal is just to let the educator know where the student is at. Which means as a home school parent, like you get to choose what you do with those results. You may put those results in a drawer and like never look at them again. Really what it is supposed to do is just help a new perspective of your student. To get a better grasp of where they are. Because so much about your student when you’re interacting with them like day to day with their education. a lot. There are some things that slip through the cracks, some things that you just don’t notice. Because. When you have the micro view, sometimes you miss out on the macro view. That test is just supposed to give you a macro view like reframe. Here’s where you’re at. Then you use that however you want to. That’s the great thing about standardized tests is they are not telling you what to do. They’re just giving you things, giving you information to work with. Then it’s up to you how you want to act on it.

Amy: Yes, that’s a really great piece of advice. Hopefully that I think also for a mom maybe who’s worried about testing. To hear that perspective like that just takes a lot of pressure off. Right? This is just information gathering. This is not a high pressure situation. Yes.

Regina: Yes, absolutely.

Amy: Regina, this has been great. I know there will be an encouragement to the homeschool parents listening. Here at the end, I want to ask you the questions. I’m asking all of my guests this season. The first is just what are you personally reading lately?

Regina: Yes, well, right now, actually, I’m reading The Fellowship of the Ring by J.R.R. Tolkien. That has been such a delight. It’s so fun to return to those good, like those books, especially of childhood. there’s like the nostalgia aspect of it. Also realizing why good books that are like part of our tradition are part of our tradition. Because they’re delightful to read. They are delightful for children. The stories are interesting. The characters are compelling. Then even as an adult, you reread it and you’re like, oh, no, this still captures the imagination. This still captures not just the childhood imagination, but the like moral imagination of an adult. When you read books that you read as a kid and you’re still just as enamored by them, that’s such a beautiful feeling of like, wow, this is good. This is actually just good because it’s good for any age and it’s good for any experience. That has been a delight to reread that one and to revisit and just enter back into that world. Learn those lessons again that the book teaches.

Amy: Yes, good books like Lord of the Rings or Chronicles of Narnia. These are books that grow with you or you grow with the books. Yes. I don’t know which would be the right way to say it. Probably both. Yes. Probably both. Yes. All right. The final question I have for you, and it would be interesting to hear your perspective, obviously, as the student in your past. What would be a tip you would give for dealing with a homeschool day that just seems to be going completely wrong?

Regina: Oh, gosh. I know that this worked scarily well when I was a kid. If we were just having a rough day for whatever reason, whether like really hard to focus or just feels like nothing would get done, our mom would have us take laps around the house. She would just have us run outside. It’s whether if it was like she needed a break or we needed a break, it didn’t matter. That was the way to go. We would just run around outside. I think this is so important. You mentioned like this was in my bio, just how much I love spending time outdoors and doing active things. I think when you live in an intellectual world, and this is coming from an English major, so I do know about the intellectual world. Sometimes we forget that we are both mind and body. I think giving some acknowledgement again to the body just helps like recenter. When you’re so focused on developing your child intellectually, sometimes their physical development can feel a little bit ignored. Sometimes you do just need to run. You do need to run outside. You need to climb a tree. You need to like look at wildflowers. I think the best way to be part of your education is to acknowledge the fact that they are both like mind, body, or all three mind, body, and soul. Giving them formation for all of that. Leaving room in your day for all of that can help one from becoming too overwhelmed. I think just letting your children be children. If they’re having a really bad day, you are not going to fail them by giving both of you guys a break. Just like spending some, like my mom would always say, getting our yayas out. Just getting the energy out. Letting the child be like that physical child for a little bit. I remember those times so fondly. Even if sometimes it was a little bit of a punishment because I was being an obnoxious kid and she would send me outside. I still loved those times because it was so good. It was so good for me to just be physical and get outside of my brain for a little bit.

Amy: Yes, that’s great. Don’t be a gnostic, right? It’s not just about the mind. You’ve got to have the body too.

Regina: Exactly. Yes, exactly.

Amy: Regina, where can people follow up with you online? Also where can they learn more about the classic learning test?

Regina: Yes. The easiest place for information for CLT is cltexam.com. That’s our website. We’ve got a lot of information on there. We also, on our media page on our website, you can see we’ve got a blog which has a lot of good, a ton of information. We have a wonderful editor who writes these blog posts. He goes through basically snapshots of history. Right now he’s going through all the fallacies and giving examples of them and explaining them, like logical fallacies. There’s a wealth of information on the blog. Then we also have a podcast that’s very involved in that classical education renewal movement. It’s interviews with our CEO and others in CLT with just leaders in the education movement. I think those are really great resources for keeping like an ear to the ground. Then if you have any specific questions, really about anything, but especially if it’s about CLT or testing or homeschooling or anything like that, you can find me at homeschool at cltexam.com. That’s my email. It’ll go straight to me. That’s a great way to stay in touch.

Amy: Perfect. I will have links to all those things you mentioned in the show notes for this episode over at humilityanddoxology.com. Thank you to everyone who has either listened or watched. I would love it if you would take a minute to share this episode with a friend you think might enjoy it. Make sure you’re subscribed in your podcast app or on YouTube. I look forward to learning more about the CLT and chatting with you again. Thanks so much.

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