Exploring the Life and Legacy of G.K. Chesterton

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I recently had the pleasure of speaking with Holly Geiger Lee, a passionate advocate of living books for the homeschool family and author of the new children’s biography, The Life of Chesterton: The Man Who Carried a Swordstick and a Pen. Our conversation delved into the life and works of G.K. Chesterton, a figure who has left an indelible mark on literature, philosophy, and theology. We explored his contributions, his personal life, and how his writings can enrich the homeschooling journey.

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Table Of Contents

Who Was G.K. Chesterton?
Chesterton's Unique Perspective
Living Books and Chesterton
The Ever-Relevant Themes of Chesterton's Work
Chesterton and Education
Chesterton and the Art of Wonder
A Personal Connection
Chesterton’s Legacy in Modern Times
Key Takeaways:
Listen to the full podcast episode “Exploring the Life and Legacy of G.K. Chesterton with Holly Geiger Lee”on Homeschool Conversations with Humility and Doxology
Find Holly Geiger Lee online:
You may also enjoy:
Check out all the other interviews in my Homeschool Conversations series!

Who Was G.K. Chesterton?

Gilbert Keith Chesterton, commonly known as G.K. Chesterton, was a prolific English writer, philosopher, and critic. Born in 1874, Chesterton’s literary career spanned several decades, producing an impressive array of novels, essays, poems, and detective stories. Despite his varied works, he is perhaps best known for his Father Brown mystery series and his apologetic writings that defend Christianity.

Chesterton’s Unique Perspective

Chesterton’s writing is characterized by his wit, humor, and profound insights into human nature. He had an uncanny ability to see the world from unconventional angles, often using paradox to reveal deeper truths. This unique perspective makes his work not only engaging but also thought-provoking, providing fertile ground for discussion and reflection for young people and adults alike.

Life of Chesterton children's biography by Holly Geiger Lee homeschool family

Living Books and Chesterton

In our discussion, Holly and I touched on the concept of “living books,” a cornerstone of the Charlotte Mason method. Living books are those that spark imagination and thought, written by authors passionate about their subjects. Chesterton’s works perfectly fit this definition. His writing is vibrant and full of life, making him an excellent choice for homeschooling families seeking to cultivate a love of literature and critical thinking in their children.

The Ever-Relevant Themes of Chesterton’s Work

Chesterton’s themes are remarkably relevant today. His exploration of the common man, his defense of the Christian faith, and his critiques of societal norms provide valuable lessons for modern readers. For homeschoolers, Chesterton’s works can serve as a springboard for discussions on ethics, philosophy, and the importance of maintaining a sense of wonder about the world.

life of chesterton the man who carried a swordstick and a pen blue sky daisies Exploring the Life and Legacy of G K Chesterton Holly Geiger Lee Homeschool Conversations podcast

Chesterton and Education

During our conversation, Holly highlighted how Chesterton’s views on education align with Charlotte Mason’s principles. In fact his wife, Frances Chesterton, worked for the PNEU for a time. Chesterton believed in the importance of nurturing curiosity and the joy of learning.

Incorporating Chesterton into your homeschooling curriculum can be a rewarding experience. His works offer rich literary and philosophical content that can challenge students and encourage deep thinking. Whether through his Father Brown stories, his essays, or his theological works, Chesterton provides ample material for developing reading comprehension, analytical skills, and moral reasoning.

Even children too young to read Chesterton’s adult works can enjoy an introduction to his life and legacy in Holly’s biography The Life of Chesterton: The Man Who Carried a Swordstick and a Pen. It could even make a great family read aloud during Morning Time!

Chesterton and the Art of Wonder

One of the most compelling aspects of Chesterton’s writing is his ability to evoke a sense of wonder. He saw the extraordinary in the ordinary and believed in the importance of maintaining a childlike awe throughout life.

A Personal Connection

Holly Lee shared her personal connection to Chesterton’s works, describing how they have enriched her own homeschooling journey. She emphasized the joy of reading Chesterton, experiencing the delight and wisdom found in his stories.

Chesterton’s Legacy in Modern Times

Chesterton’s influence extends beyond literature into various facets of modern culture and thought. His ideas continue to inspire writers, educators, and thinkers. Exploring Chesterton’s legacy can provide a deeper understanding of Western intellectual history and its ongoing impact.

Our conversation underscored the value of integrating G.K. Chesterton’s works into our homeschooling and personal study. His vibrant writing, profound insights, and ability to inspire wonder make him an ideal author for enriching educational experiences and for spurring us to contemplate deeply and love God more.

As we concluded our discussion, Holly and I reflected on the enduring relevance of Chesterton’s work and the joy it brings to us. For those looking to infuse their educational approach with depth, humor, and wisdom, G.K. Chesterton offers a treasure trove of inspiration. His legacy is a testament to the power of literature to shape minds and hearts across generations.

Key Takeaways:

G. K. Chesterton’s Life and Work: Chesterton was a prolific writer known for his wit, wisdom, and wide-ranging works, including essays, novels, and apologetics. He made significant contributions to literature and Christian thought.
Influence on Christian Thought: Chesterton’s writings have had a lasting impact on Christian apologetics and philosophy. His defense of Christianity and critique of secularism continue to resonate with readers today.
Unique Literary Style: Chesterton’s use of paradox, humor, and insightful observations made his writing engaging and thought-provoking. His ability to convey deep truths in a relatable manner is a hallmark of his style.
Major Works Discussed: Some of Chesterton’s notable works mentioned include “Orthodoxy,” “The Everlasting Man,” and the Father Brown mystery series. Each of these works showcases his versatility and depth of thought.
Living Books Philosophy: The discussion highlighted the concept of “living books,” which are well-written, engaging texts that spark a love for learning. Chesterton’s works fit well within this philosophy due to their rich content and compelling storytelling.
Role in Homeschooling: Chesterton’s works can be valuable resources in a homeschooling curriculum, providing students with exposure to quality literature and thought-provoking ideas.
Personal Reflections: Both Amy and Holly shared personal anecdotes about how Chesterton’s writings have influenced their lives and perspectives, demonstrating the enduring relevance of his work.
Educational Value: The conversation underscored the importance of incorporating classical literature and thoughtful writings, like those of Chesterton, into educational programs to foster critical thinking and a love for learning.
Challenges and Misconceptions: They discussed some of the challenges in understanding Chesterton’s more complex ideas and how modern readers can sometimes misinterpret his intentions or overlook the context of his time.
Encouragement for Readers: The discussion ended with encouragement for readers to explore Chesterton’s works, emphasizing that while his writing can be dense, it is ultimately rewarding and enriching for those who take the time to engage with it.

Buy your own copy of Holly’s Chesterton biography here!

Exploring the Life and Legacy of G K Chesterton Holly Geiger Lee Homeschool Conversations podcast

Listen to the full podcast episode “Exploring the Life and Legacy of G.K. Chesterton with Holly Geiger Lee”on Homeschool Conversations with Humility and Doxology

Holly Geiger Lee lives in her home of North Carolina, where she has worked in the fields of education and counseling. A homeschooling mother to three and wife to Andrew, Holly loves to read with her children, participate in family games, and take dance lessons with her husband. Her work at mylittlebrickschoolhouse.com connects parents and children with living books.

Find Holly Geiger Lee online:

Check out all the other interviews in my Homeschool Conversations series!

Amy: You guys, welcome to this special bonus episode of Homeschool Conversations. Today I am joined by my friend Holly Geiger Lee. She is one of my online friends who is also an in-real-life friend. It’s just really a delight to get to chat with Holly today as her new book has just come out. Before I get to that, I’ll introduce you to Holly. Holly lives in her home of North Carolina, where she has worked in the fields of both education and counseling.

She’s a homeschooling mother to three and wife to Andrew, and she loves to read with her children, participate in family games, and take dance lessons with her husband. Holly’s work at mylittlebrickschoolhouse.com connects parents and children with living books. Holly, I’m really delighted to have you here today. Please tell us a little bit about yourself and your family and your background with education and homeschooling.

Holly: Oh, Amy, thank you so much for having me. This is such an honor. I just wanted to say thank you for having me. Background in education, I grew up a public-school kid, as many people in my generation have. I just, from the very beginning, my first love was teaching. I was that kid that would teach her stuffed animals, and in high school, I always had some extracurricular that dealt with either teaching or mentoring or doing something in that capacity. It really didn’t come as a surprise for me to go to college and earn a bachelor’s degree in elementary education.

I taught in the public schools here in North Carolina for four years. I took a lot of life lessons with me from that. In 2012, my husband and I, Andrew and I moved to our current town. It was a new start. It was a small town at the time. It’s now growing. It wasn’t until 2017 or so that I really started seriously considering homeschooling.

My husband was homeschooled. He’s one of seven children. It seemed like a natural choice, but at the same time, I had to come to that myself. To be able to make that decision, I wasn’t sure 100%, but after just consulting and praying and just talking to my husband, we decided that it would be a good thing to try. At the beginning of, I think it was 2018, that’s when we were seriously on board with homeschooling.

I read a lot of books back then. I read The Well-Trained Mind, as I’m sure a lot of your listeners have read, by Susan Wise Bauer and Jessie Wise. I got a feeling for what classical education looked like, because I don’t know about you guys, but I had to take some kind of an inventory to see what was my homeschooling style. I did. I scored pretty high in Charlotte Mason and classical in-unit study methods, if you will. I started homeschooling. Really, when people ask me, and when they ask me to this day, why do you homeschool? My main motivation would be, I want to be with my kids. I just want to spend time with my kids. That’s what I told people then, and that’s what I would still tell people now.

Here we are. It’s been a whirlwind. We’re in our seventh year, about to start our seventh year of homeschooling. It’s been something that has been different almost every year, because we’ve had little kids, and now we have middle-aged kids going into kindergarten and second grade, and I have a fifth grader. We are just really excited about starting this year, because I actually discovered a university model school, where our three will attend two days a week, and then the remaining three days, they’ll be with me at home. I think it’s just going to be a really great balance for our family, and I’m looking forward to that.

In our homeschool, we’ve tried a lot of different things, but I have so many wonderful memories I’m sure a lot of your listeners can relate, like tea time, nature study, field trips. We’re part of a small co-op, and we’ve participated in classical conversations before. It’s just been a variety of things, but it’s a rich life. We’ve loved it. We’ve loved morning time, Bible reading, and hymn study, picture study, writing and rhetoric.

We’ve outsourced a little bit here and there. My son has a math tutor now, and it’s great. It’s been a lot of help to us. I believe homeschooling can look different for different people, but I also believe that homeschooling is a journey for the mom as well. I have really enjoyed reading Cindy Rollins’ Beyond Mere Motherhood about self-education.

I went down to Georgia three summers in a row when I was learning more about the Charlotte Mason method, and I loved going to the Charlotte Mason Together Retreat down there in the Atlanta area. That was such a rich experience, and I even made a couple of friends there and still keep up with them occasionally. I feel like homeschooling is a journey for the whole family, mom included, of course. It’s been good.

Amy: I love to hear that story so much. I knew parts of that, but I love how you talked about where you’ve really come to see this why of homeschooling is about being with your children, this relationship you have with them. Sometimes, especially new homeschoolers, can get really overwhelmed and fixated on, “I’ve got to pick the perfect curriculum, I’ve got to pick the perfect homeschool philosophy,” this, that, and the other, all that extra details that are an important part. They’re a real part, obviously, of our home education journey.

It’s good for us to keep, like what you were saying in mind, that at the end of the day, it’s about this time we’re spending with our children. It’s about those relationships, those real people, those image bearers. Also, it’s about the work God’s doing in our lives as moms, too. If we can keep that big picture in mind, maybe it’ll help us not be quite so stressed about all the other details.

Holly: Keeping the big picture and the things that matter in view, I think, it’s good.

Amy: I know one of the things you really focus on with your children and as you’re talking to parents online is connecting people to living books. Can you explain a little bit about what you mean by living books? I think this is one of those terms that just gets thrown around willy-nilly, and people maybe are afraid to ask what it means, or maybe they have certain assumptions when they hear that term. Explain a little bit about what you mean by that term, and why you think living books are a valuable part of our children’s education.

Holly: The term living book, I think, comes from Charlotte Mason, who was a 20th century British education reformer. I think that’s at least when I first heard of that term, when I was delving into Charlotte Mason and learning about her. She writes in her book, A Philosophy of Education. I have not read the whole book. I’ll just be honest. I have read parts of it.

She says that we as teachers should train a child, and I’m quoting her, train a child upon many living books, for we know that our business is not to teach him all about anything, but to help him make valid as many as may be of those first-born affinities that fit our new existence to existing things. That was a lot, but I think she quoted William Wordsworth, the poet, when she said that we as teachers should train a child, for we know that our business is not to teach him all about anything, but to help him make valid as many as may be of those first-born affinities that fit our new existence to existing things.

I think what she’s saying, in other words, is we invite children to make sense of the objective truths in their world and to make those truths come alive to them. How do we do that? We expose them to a variety of ideas found in well-written books that are– If they’re nonfiction books, they could pass. If you wanted to learn about mushrooms, you could buy a book that was just a textbook format on a mushroom and all the varieties of mushrooms, or you could buy a book that was told in the form of a story, a narrative.

Living books, generally speaking, they are written by one author who is passionate about his or her topic. They’re written in that narrative form, which is engaging to children. It brings children in. They’re usually books that fire the imagination and touch the emotions, and then they spark ideas that can be connected to other ideas. I love, for example, this book that we’ve been reading in our home school, Mathematicians Are People, Too. Have you heard of it, Amy?

Amy: Yes. In fact, I have a copy from my own childhood that my kids and I still read.

Holly: That’s awesome.

It’s a great one, because I think a lot of the time people might consider a living book to be more focused on history and they forget other disciplines. It’s interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary. A living book could be math, it could be science, it could be history, it could be literature, it could be geography. There’s so many ways to tie in different subject areas.

I like this book a lot, because we, for example, personal story, we were reading about the famous inventor and mathematician Archimedes. He, if I’m not mistaken, determined that pi was equal to 3.12 blah blah blah blah blah. His story was just captivating. It tells of his discoveries and his inventions, but there’s also a very poignant part to his story. The Romans sacked his city of Syracuse. I wanted to read an excerpt from this book, if you don’t mind.

Amy: No, please.

Holly: I’ll read it. It’s right in front of me, too. Unlike his countrymen, Archimedes was not celebrating when the Romans attacked. As usual, he was deeply involved in a problem. He had no idea anything unusual was happening. He knew someone was standing in the light, making a shadow on the ground where he was drawing his geometric shapes.

I can just imagine him really working hard to focus on his problem. Then a Roman soldier comes in, and they’re sacking his city. “Get out of the light, will you?” He said. “Can’t I’m working?” “Rise and follow me, old man,” the soldier commanded. Archimedes didn’t hear him. He kept working, his brow furrowed in deep concentration. He didn’t notice the soldier angrily unsheathed his sword. Proud and arrogant, the soldier disobeyed Marcellus’s order and killed the greatest creative genius of the ancient world. The name of that story from this book is The Man Who Concentrated Too Hard.

That just that excerpt, just full of living ideas, ideas about honoring the person made in God’s image and what it might look like when you let your emotions get in control, or not in control, but out of control in a situation like the anger of that soldier. He was arrogant. He was proud. He might have wanted to make a name for himself, and he just acted in that rash way. There’s so many ideas you can talk about when you read a story like that. That’s the power of a living book.

Amy: It’s no surprise to me hearing just your delight in living books and sharing them with your children. I know I always see you sharing new book lists and book ideas online as well. It’s not really a surprise to me that you wanted to write your own book. [laughs] You have a book coming out, which is a children’s biography of one of my very favorite authors, G.K. Chesterton. I am so excited about this.

Right here, I have my old copy. This is my copy of Orthodoxy from when I was a teenager. I have read it almost every year since. It’s filled with my snarky comments and underlinings. It’s fun to see my growth as a reader as well as I reread my copy. I am just curious how you first became interested in learning more about Chesterton and then writing about him as well.

Holly: I just want to say, Amy, I’m so impressed. You are so much– You’re a better reader than I am. I applaud you because I have not gotten to that level of expert where I am reading the same work and really letting it sink into me. Because I know every time you read something, every new reading of it, you’re going to get something different, and something is going to be emphasized each time. I would say that’s really impressive, and I love that.

I have aspirations, but I will say I started out learning about G.K. Chesterton probably, I would say it was 2013. It was a while ago, but I hadn’t heard of G.K. Chesterton prior to that point in my life. I was in my mid to late 20s, and I loved C.S. Lewis. I had read The Great Divorce, The Four Loves, Mere Christianity.

I know which one to order up. I loved C.S. Lewis, and I thought, “I need a book right now. I need a book recommendation.” What better place to go to seek advice than Facebook? I posted something one day. I was like, “Does anybody have a book recommendation for me? I really like C.S. Lewis, but I’d like something along that line, something imaginative, but I also nonfiction, something philosophical.” An old friend from my campus ministry, she responded and said, “You should read G.K. Chesterton. If you like Lewis, you’ll like Chesterton.” The recommendation she gave me was The Man Who Was Thursday. I said, “Okay. Never heard of that, but sure.”

Amy: Maybe one of Chesterton’s weirdest books.

Holly: I know. I was like, “She didn’t mention Orthodoxy, she didn’t mention Heretics, but oh well.” That was my first introduction to Chesterton. I didn’t even read The Man Who Was Thursday because I opened it and I didn’t know how to interpret it. I didn’t have much guidance there. I will say since then, I have listened to a wonderful podcast, The Literary Life Podcast with Angelina Stanford and Thomas Banks. They do a really great job of going through The Man Who Was Thursday.

I will say that helped me out a lot. Early on, I thought it was really confusing, G.K. Chesterton. I just thought he was very wordy, which he is. It’s very verbose. He wasn’t as easy to read for me as Lewis. I think, Chesterton came back to me after that initial introduction. I won’t get into all the details, but I did try to publish a book on the life of Lego founder, Ole Kirk Christiansen.

Actually, I was working alongside my current publishing company on that book, and it didn’t work out. It just didn’t work out because Lego has a lot of interesting copyright laws and things like that. Apparently, you can’t write a biography on the founder of Lego without going through the Lego group. That’s somewhat new. That’s as of 2018. That’s a new guideline they have.

Anyway, I didn’t want to get into all that. It didn’t make sense to pursue that project. I had to sit on it for a little while, but it just came to me after I mourned a little bit the loss of that project. I just thought, “I love biography. I know I want to stick with that genre. Who has a compelling story?” It just came to me, G.K. Chesterton. He was one of the most renowned writers of his day, and I would say arguably one of the best writers of the 20th century. He has the Christian apologetic background, like C.S. Lewis.

I know a lot of people in the world have heard of Lewis, but I feel like Chesterton just wasn’t highlighted as much, and for various reasons. I just thought, well, and if you really go down that rabbit hole, you see that C.S. Lewis can connect his conversion to Christianity to G.K. Chesterton’s book, The Everlasting Man. After C.S. Lewis read The Everlasting Man, he went from atheist to believer. I thought that was noteworthy. I was like, “Who is this G.K. Chesterton? Let’s get into him a little bit more.”

I really do think through that journey, I became well-acquainted with Chesterton. I saw so many valuable nuggets that people, homeschooling moms, people who just love Christian apologetics, people who love good writing and literature, all of those people could get something from G.K. Chesterton. I became well-acquainted with him. I got to know him better by reading his autobiography.

I was in a small eastern North Carolina town. I spent two days just immersing myself in his autobiography. I listened to another biography I had on audio, and I was constantly pausing the audio to transcribe what I heard, and then reading the autobiography with my eyeballs late into the night, writing those notes down, color coding the notes to make sure my sources didn’t get mixed up. It was a laborious process, but well worth it. That initial research period was just my first deep dive into Chesterton.

Amy: That is so fun. I love that you were introduced to

him. I love that you didn’t give up on him after you tried The Man Who Was Thursday, which as someone who loves Chesterton, I have to say is not my favorite. I actually have read it twice, and both times, I was like, “This is so weird.”

Holly: I know it is weird.

Amy: I think Chesterton is really fun and unique because he was so prolific. He’s written on just about every topic. No matter what you’re interested in, science, literature, history, current events, philosophy, fiction, he was a mystery author. There’s something for everyone. I love that. For anyone else who maybe like you is not super familiar with Chesterton, like you were previously, can you just give us a brief introduction to his life and then his legacy?

Holly: I’ll try to make it brief. [laughs] I guess you can start with, he was born in 1874, Victorian England. He was born Gilbert Keith Chesterton, GK, that’s where we get GK. He grew up in a home where there was just a lot of wonder and imagination. His parents were loving parents. He had an older sister named Beatrice, who was eight when, sadly, she passed away. He was three years old when it happened. He remembers her, but he doesn’t have as big, vivid recollection of her.

He has bits and pieces, snapshots of her memory. Later on, they did have a third child, Cecil Chesterton, and he was very close with Cecil. They argued all the time, but he practiced debating with Cecil, he said, from the moment Cecil learned to speak.

He has in his autobiography some really good memories of childhood. I would say it was a rich childhood full of books and imagination. He has a vivid memory of somebody painting a white hobby horse, one of the stick horses, on what is believed to have been his nursery wall. Ironically enough, a white horse would later become the topic of his epic poem, The Ballad of the White Horse. I’m not saying that was, directly connected to that, but the white horse was a recurring image in his memory and in his writing. He had a very happy childhood overall, aside from his sister’s death.

I thought this was interesting to all of us homeschooling moms and educators. In childhood, he was given the freedom to explore his interests and all sorts of things that he was curious about. Before he was sent to school, he actually learned his Greek capital letters. This was his own initiative. He did it himself, just for fun. He loved capital Greek letters, but he said lowercase Greek letters when he was made to learn those later, he said they were like a swarm of gnats. He had his opinions about this.

His favorite fairy tale was The Princess and the Goblin by George MacDonald. I have listened to that one. I love it. I speak more about his interests in the book and how he met his best friend at school. All that to say his childhood imagination really did influence his adulthood imagination. They’re inextricably connected, seamless. He was very imaginative.

He was known for his wit, his wisdom. He went to a school where the students were encouraged to pursue their own interests. Sometimes his genius went unnoticed by teachers because he was spacey. As you may imagine, I don’t know, I feel like with that kind of genius, you have to have a bit of spaciness, too. He was committed to good cheer and happiness.

He had a solid group of friends. They formed a debate club on their own. It was really neat to read about that as I was researching. His dad had a lot of hobbies. His father, I think he was a real estate broker or something by day. At nighttime or in his free time, he made time for literature and making toy theaters. He was a really good artist. He sketched a lot. G.K. Chesterton inherited some of those traits from his dad. He did. It didn’t come as a huge surprise that he went off to art school. He was really good at drawing.

At that same time, he was away from his family, he was away from his friends. He was further down the river or upriver from his neighborhood, his London familiarity. He experienced a period of confusion. I talk about this in the book a little bit, talking about his exposure to those postmodern secular ideas that a lot of his teachers were promoting in art school. These ideas really troubled Gilbert a lot and got to him. You can read a little bit more about that.

He kept notebooks. Some of his notebooks were just filled with really bad grotesque drawings. He said he went through what he called the darkest depths of contemporary pessimism. Ideas from Nietzsche, like nihilism, that life is meaningless. Then he was struggling with a lot of intrusive thoughts. That was a hard period of life for him. The Lord, he had a plan for him. He had a plan for Gilbert. What really happened next was overall, to summarize, he went from despair to gratitude.

He was reminded of something his grandfather had said. His grandfather was a believer. He had to hang on to that truth. It was about gratitude and just being grateful that he was created. He went from gratitude to love. He came to understand that the only one who could save him from himself and his sin was Christ. He had gone from unbelief to belief. He started reading his Bible. He understood, as he describes Christ, the man with the golden key, who unlocked the answer to the riddle of life and unlocked his soul.

That period transitioned him. His notebooks that were once filled with horrible things were now filled with gratitude and belief and biblical truth. He believed strongly that the only thing that could actually be proved was original sin. He held to that doctrine that we are sinners from birth. We are inherently sinful. This truth, is the bad news. Then we have the good news of the gospel that Christ saved us from our sin and gives us a new heart, a new life.

He lived in that, and he grew and he was growing. He met his sweetheart, Frances, and ended up marrying her. His first published work was in 1900. It was a collection of poems called Gray Beards at Play. He illustrated all that himself. After getting married in 1901, he went on to write some more. Then by 1902, he was becoming famous as an essayist. People were starting to talk more about him. Even in America, they were starting to talk about G.K. Chesterton. He also wrote an imaginative novel called The Napoleon of Notting Hill. It was about defending one’s tradition and beliefs. He was very much a man of tradition. He liked to call it Little England, the way things were.

He loved King Alfred of the early Middle Ages. He really liked to hold to these traditional beliefs and values. He wrote Heretics, which was his first work that addressed postmodern thinking and faulty thinking, not just in postmodern times, but it came from his interaction with those ideas back in art school. This was his way to express the need to believe in absolute truth.

Then later, this prompted Gilbert to write about doctrine and defend right thinking. That’s the book Orthodoxy that came as a response to Heretics. He was urged to write his own thinking about, what is right thinking, Gilbert? Keith Chesterton, why don’t you tell us? He said, “Okay, I should answer that question.” That was the book Orthodoxy.

Without Chesterton, you could say C.S. Lewis would not have read The Everlasting Man, which did lead to his conversion. Without Chesterton, we wouldn’t have affectionately named A Prince of Paradox. That was his nickname, The Prince of Paradox

because he was known for that writing style of comparing two things that were similar yet different at the same time. Then without Chesterton, the secular views of the 20th century would not have been challenged nearly as much.

He challenged opinions, but he did it in a very respectful way. Without Chesterton, we would not have The Ballad of the White Horse. C.S. Lewis once asked, “Don’t you like the way Chesterton takes hold of you in The Ballad of the White Horse, shakes you, and makes you want to cry?” He loves The Ballad of the White Horse.

I think Winston Churchill later on quoted in one of his famous speeches part of The Ballad of the White Horse as well. Without the Chestertons, Frances and Gilbert, 25 children would have been without godparents. They would have had to find different godparents. They had 25 godchildren. His lifelong friend wrote about Chesterton after he died. He said, “He was a giant of English letters. He’s been taken from us. Without or with Gilbert Chesterton gone, the world can never be the same again.” Apparently, he just impacted so many people.

Amy: There were so many stories in there that I didn’t know about his life. It makes me really eager to read your biography of him. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about his wife Frances, because I think my listeners who are Charlotte Mason mamas especially might be intrigued by her background.

Holly: I learned a lot about Frances in this book, The Woman Who Was Chesterton by Nancy Carpenter Brown. I also have a biography by Maisie Ward who she included a lot of Frances’s correspondence and Gilbert’s correspondence to one another and a lot of anecdotes and things like that. I really found Frances Chesterton very interesting.

She lived in London as well. She lived in a more bohemian neighborhood than Gilbert growing up, more artsy. She was born Frances Blogg, like a blog post but double G on the end. Some fun facts about Frances. She and her sister were among the first students to attend the first kindergarten in Great Britain because the Germans had brought it over to Britain at that point. She went to kindergarten.

Now this is the part that might appeal to the Charlotte Mason folks out there. She worked at the Parents National Education Union under Charlotte Mason’s direction. She was a secretary. In fact, all of the blog sisters were secretaries at some point or another in their lives. She and Gilbert had a long engagement. They met actually at her parents’ home. That’s a fascinating story, too. I’ll have to read about that. They met each other and they had a very long engagement because Gilbert had to earn enough money to become someone who could marry.

Essentially, he had to work, he got to keep working for a while. I think they met in, oh, it was 1895 or 1896. They ended up getting married in 1901. It was a pretty long courtship and then engagement. He was not earning very much as a young journalist. At the beginning of their courtship, it said 25 shillings a week. I tried to do some conversion on that. I don’t know if I got it right. It was something like two and a half days wages based on what I came up with. I don’t know if that’s 100% correct. He wasn’t earning a lot, all that to say.

Frances loved Charlotte Mason. She was working as a secretary for a while. During this time at the PNEU, she composed essays, she reviewed books, she edited articles for two of the publications there at the PNEU. She debated at educational meetings and gave speeches. She was a very intelligent, wise woman. She’s described as having this quiet intelligence and quiet composure about her. She and Gilbert, they ran in the same social circles.

Frances and her siblings had this other debate club. Gilbert had been in a debate club growing up in his young adulthood with some friends. Frances also, I guess it was a common thing at that time, during that day, to have these debate clubs. She and her friends, neighbors, siblings formed a debate club. It was called the I Don’t Know Club. Gilbert joined that when they started their courtship. They were quite romantic. They wrote notes to each other. Frances would press flowers into her books. Then she would later give the flowers to Gilbert.

If you want to read more about their wedding, I describe that in a lot of detail in the book. There are some humorous instances that happened, anecdotes about that day. I don’t want to give them away. That’s a teaser there. Not everything was just roses and rainbows and butterflies. They experienced a lot of heartache early on. For example, one thing that happened, Frances’s sister, Gertrude, had a horrible accident. She was riding a bicycle. She was hit by an omnibus and just died. She had that going on. Had to grieve her sister’s death.

She didn’t grieve without hope. She was a believer. It was just very hard. They also, another thing that added to their suffering was they couldn’t have children, even though they wanted children. She couldn’t get pregnant. She went through some surgeries. It didn’t happen. Instead of feeling sorry for herself, and instead of staying there in that grief, they decided they would be godparents and also welcome people in to their home a lot. They were very hospitable. They had big parties that were designated children-only parties.

They had a lot of things going on around Christmas time in their neighborhood. Just welcomed families in. They were very involved in the lives of their nieces and nephews. I thought that was a really neat thing about them and how they gave. They gave. They poured into other people. They didn’t just wallow in their sadness, They wanted children. It was one of those things where they couldn’t change it. Where they were, where God had them in their life and in their station, they just used that to glorify him.

Also, Frances later on had to mourn the death of her brother. They definitely were not strangers to suffering. She possessed a lot of faith and she leaned into the Lord during these hard times. Also, Gilbert, one winter he got really sick. The doctors thought it had to do with his heart. He was in bed for three or four months. As was the medical advice of the day, they had him in a comatose state part of that time. She had to just be patient and wait on the Lord to heal him.

He did get up. He did start walking around and was back on his feet around Easter time. That’s neat, too. It was right around Easter when we celebrate Christ’s resurrection. It’s neat how she was able to see the answer to so many prayers. Just, it was good, but she had to wait during that time and hope and pray. Frances had many hobbies like gardening and writing poetry. She cared for animals. She arranged bouquets. She had art for people.

She served the needy. She loved the Lord. She was a faithful wife to Gilbert. She also, fun fact, kept him from getting lost. Many times, told him where he needed to be when he couldn’t remember or he had so much on his mind with his writing. He just floated through life, maybe not really having a full awareness sometimes of where he needed to be next. He didn’t like to hold to schedules as much as maybe some people would. She was more of that person.

She managed the finances for a while. She told him where he needed to be. She had a place in the house designated for his things and important notes that he needed to remember. She had a, I don’t know, some placard or sign in the home that said, “Lest we forget.” It was just very much, it was humorous to read about how she complimented him. I love learning about Frances Chesterton.

Amy: It sounds like she was just the right helper that he needed. That’s really great. Holly, as we wrap up talking about Chesterton’s life, was there anything that surprised you as you read either about him or read his works or any favorite quotes that you have?

Holly: I loved reading. I was taking a little course last summer on The Ballad of the White Horse to familiarize myself with that, and I loved reading about how Chesterton just really had an affinity for medieval tradition, and he knew so much history. I just kept on discovering more and more fascinating metaphors and illusions and imagery that he included in that poem. He had a love of King Alfred of Wessex, and he just would talk about, in that poem, of course, it’s about Alfred defeating the Norse invaders that come to Britain back in like the 800s, so the 9th century.

It was almost like taking a history course. He was brilliant. The cool thing about Chesterton was he liked to travel to some of the places that he would write about. He and Francis went to the area where Alfred fought the battle against Guthrum, the Viking invader and his men, and it was called the Battle of Edington. Then he also went to this area not too far from Edington called Uffington, where if you go there, you will see on a hillside, it’s a beautiful green hillside, look it up on Wikipedia or wherever, just Google the White Horse of Uffington.

There is a white horse that nobody knows exactly how it got there, but people believe that– The people that lived there centuries ago scored the earth and carved off the soil and the top layer to expose the white chalky limestone underneath. It’s in the shape of a horse. Yes, and so he went there, he saw it with his own eyes. He was inspired to write the Ballad of the White Horse about the Battle of Edington and about King Alfred. It was just really brilliant how he wove all those pieces together. He also writes in his collection of short essays, there is one essay called A Piece of Chalk.

He also writes about how England or that part of England, Southern England, is metaphorically and literally a piece of chalk because it is on that chalky limestone. That is the land. In addition, he was comparing the chalk from that land to the industriousness, the ingenuity and the creativity of the people who lived there. It’s a great piece, pun intended, great piece. I recommend that one. Yes, I just kept becoming more and more surprised and intrigued by his love for that area of England and all the imagery that is wrapped up in those places.

I have a favorite Chesterton quote. You asked about Chesterton quote. Yes. The one I’ve always liked is around gratitude. He actually wrote it in one of his notebooks after he emerged from that dark period of art school. When he started to see how God was providing for him in so many ways and how Christ is really at the center of everything, he said, and you’ve probably heard this quote before, “You say grace before meals. All right. I say grace before the play and the opera and grace before the concert and the pantomime and grace before I open a book and grace before sketching, painting, swimming, fencing, boxing, walking, playing, dancing, and grace before I dip the pen in the ink.”

I can’t even imagine him doing all those things like swimming, fencing, boxing, walking. The gist of it is that no matter what, God is always there. He’s omnipresent. We can always come to him in prayer and we can thank him all the time because he’s a good God. I love it. I love how he expresses that. I don’t think I could ever express anything quite like that.

Amy: Chesterton has this amazing sense of wonder and delight, I think, in everything I have read from him. This ability to see the world in a childlike way and not in a way where it’s an immature, it’s actually the maturity of childhood to see things as they truly are and to rejoice in that and to see the Lord’s hand at work. I just think that’s one of his real gifts that he brings to every topic he discusses.

Holly: Yes. I know. It’s a paradox, too. He’s childlike, but he’s so, like you said, to see things as they really are. He’s wise in that childlikeness. I think that’s such a neat thing that you pointed out.

Amy: If you were talking to a teen or adult who wanted to start reading Chesterton, which one of his books or works would you encourage them to start with?

Holly: I admit, I have not read every single one of his works, but I have read a lot of his short essays and stories. I have read a couple of his longer works, aside from his autobiography. I would recommend if you’re wanting to start with something a little lighter, Tremendous Trifles is a collection of short essays and short stories. It’s so clever. It’s like taking G.K. Chesterton and putting him into a capsule. It’s very concentrated G.K. Chesterton. You get the full benefit of G.K. Chesterton, but it’s not like eating a five-course meal. You’re just having your multivitamin of G.K. Chesterton. If I had to compare it to that, it’s just so good. I like, A Piece of Chalk is in there, Tremendous Trifles is another, and then there was one–

Just like, you could pick any of them, and you’d probably be surprised that some of them, they’re all so different. In Topsy Turvy Land is another one, and I just, yes, I would recommend that one if you want something a little lighter. Then if you’re looking for something more comprehensive, I would go with The Everlasting Man, because, oh, I’m listening to it right now, and it’s just like, I would say, it’s like you– He explains how Christianity is the answer, okay, in The Everlasting Man. It’s not something that has just survived after having apparently been defeated by various conquests and persecutions and all of that.

It has thrived and has died many times in prison again for– This is quoting Chesterton, for it had a God who knew the way out of the grave. I like The Everlasting Man because it’s an overview of history from antiquity to Chesterton’s modern times, and it goes through how at our core, religion is something that all people inherently have, but the question is, who are you going to worship? It’s not like we can deny this impulse to worship something and to know that God is real. You can’t deny that. He goes so much more eloquently into how Christ is the man with the golden key who unlocks the answer to the riddle of life.

I think that’s a really good one if you want, and C.S. Lewis read it and later became a Christian. I think that’s worth noting.

Amy: If C.S. Lewis loved it, who are we to say no?

Holly: Right.

Amy: If children or families are wanting to learn more about Chesterton, of course, they can start with your children’s biography, The Life of Chesterton. Can you just tell us a little bit about your book and where people can find that?

Holly: Okay. It’s an amazing book. [laughter] No, in all seriousness, though, I really wanted this book originally to be a children’s picture book biography. It was going to be like a children’s, open the pages, look at the pictures, and just have a little bit of text on each page. That was back in 2021, but the idea was revised and reworked. Blue Sky Daisies Publishing, they’ve been wonderful to work with, and they had that vision for a middle grades chapter book biography with pen and ink drawings.

After they cast the vision, I could see it and I could get on board with it, but I was still nervous about writing a chapter book. I didn’t want to make a mistake in the research process. There’s so much that is important. You have to get the right sources the first time, and that can be tricky, so it was a lot of hard work, but they were wonderful to work with, and I’m a first-timer. I needed some editing help. They were wonderful, Amy and Tina at Blue Sky Daisies, so I believe that the project has been made so much better than the initial idea, and also we found a wonderful illustrator.

I think that can also make a project what– It helps it rise to its full potential. We had a great illustrator in Nellie Buchanan, and if you haven’t found her yet, I would recommend following her. Her handle on Instagram is illustrations_by_nellie, which is N-E-L-L-I-E. She added so much beauty to the project. I would say her style is more like vintage and like a nostalgic style. We think like early 20th century, like Norman Rockwell inspired, so that was really neat to find her work and to have her be a part of the project, so yes. She hides a few Easter eggs in her illustrations, not like little Easter eggs, but like she hides a few things that you might find interesting.

One of them, there’s a sketch of G.K. Chesterton in his childhood library, and if you look carefully at the book’s spines in the library, you’ll see one with my name on it, which I thought was really clever, she’s amazing. I would actually love to have her do some art. In fact, I did ask her to do a sketch of my three children, and she’s going to do like a Norman Rockwell style sketch with their three profiles put together. I’ll have to show you once I get it from her. I’m really excited about that, but the name of the book, the title of the book, is The Life of Chesterton, The Man Who Carried a Swordstick and a Pen.

You think about what he did, he liked to defend the truth. You think about a swordstick in medieval times, being used to defend, but he would just use it to point to things and pontificate and make gestures, but he would actually carry a swordstick around with him, and a pen, of course. He was using that as a weapon for truth, and so the book itself is about 115 pages long, and it’s written for middle grades, and I would describe it as a primer to G.K. Chesterton’s life and writing.

I’m a homeschool mom. I’m not any high-level expert on Chesterton, but this whole process has helped me become more well-versed in Chesterton, and I’m very grateful for the opportunity. I’m really excited about just the book and introducing people to Chesterton.

Amy: I feel like you’re this person who found this interesting man, this interesting life, these interesting books, and you got excited about them, and now you’re like, “Come on, everyone, come. I want you to learn and be as excited as I am, too,” which I think, going back to our original discussion about living books, that’s what you want from an author. You want someone who’s like, “Oh, I’m so excited. Let me share this beautiful story with you.” I cannot wait personally to read your book, and I’m going to have to make you sign me a copy.

Holly: I will do that for you, Amy.

Amy: Oh, thanks.

Holly: I wish I had a time machine that I could go back and travel in time. I really would love to meet him. It’s a shame, you get so connected to a person by reading their work and by learning about them, but it leaves you wanting like, I wish I actually had this friendship with this person. That’s how I feel about Chesterton.

Amy: Yes, a wonderful person to meet one day in heaven.

Holly: Yes, that’s right. That’s right.

Amy: Holly, here at the end, I’m going to ask you the questions I’m asking all of my guests in this upcoming season. The first is just what are you personally reading lately?

Holly: Well, right now I’m reading Maisie Ward’s biography on G.K. Chesterton, and that’s from my own edification. I’m trying to get to know him even better through that. I’m also reading this book by– Your audience probably has a few Sally Clarkson fans. Are you familiar with Sally Clarkson?

Amy: Yes.

Holly: Yes. Her daughter, Joy Marie Clarkson, wrote a book not too long ago, it came out, I think in February. It’s called You Are a Tree and Other Metaphors to Nourish Thought, Life, and Prayer. That’s been good. Talking about the different metaphors, light as wisdom, life as a journey, love as a disease, all these experiences that humanity has had from the very beginning of history, because humanity keeps relating these things together, putting them together. I think it’s a good study of metaphor, but it’s also just a good study on what it is to be human. I really like it.

Amy: The second question I’m asking all my guests this season is what is your best tip for dealing with a homeschool day or season that seems to just be going totally wrong?

Holly: Yes, so I’ve had a few of those. I feel like a lot of the time we react to situations. I think that some things that have helped me to try to remember, at least, is the relationship comes first, okay, no matter what you’re doing. I know sometimes it seems like math, everything is at stake, and have to get through this and all, but honestly, taking time to admit your own wrongdoing, it packs a lot of punch, I think, in a good way. Admitting your own wrongdoing in a situation when things might be going haywire and reconciling with that person.

Hugging helps, scientifically, brain science, it helps to hug somebody, just feels better. Then, remembering scripture and saying it back to yourself and the other person, whether it’s a child, usually, it’s a child, right, if you’re in homeschool. Just reminding yourself, God’s with us right now, and if there’s a scripture you can pull out of your mind. For me, I like the scripture from Zephaniah 3:17, The Lord your God is mighty to save, He will take great delight in you, He will rejoice over you with singing, He will quiet you with His love, or something to that effect, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing, He’s with you, He’s mighty to save.

He’s with you right now in this moment, it’s really hard, but je’s still with you. Then, just as a preemptive measure, to try to offset the hard days, just think about the sweet times you have together, and maybe go outside of your space a little bit, maybe go to a park, even if it means stopping the lesson. I know that sounds really hard for a lot of us, myself included, but going to a place where you can clear your mind a little bit, or get back on the connection train with your child, even with a fun book or a joke book.

I found that joke books, for us, that’s been, therapy in some ways, because they connect people together, and it resets your mind a little bit, so I think that you have permission to read joke books, too.

Amy: Those are wonderful tips, and I will say yes with the jokes, especially this past year, my youngest son going through his treatment for cancer, jokes have been a wonderful way to just bring a little bit of laughter and relief to really tricky situations, so if they can work in the hospital, I think they can definitely work during a math lesson.

Holly: Yes, perspective, yes.

Amy: Holly, where can people find you all around the internet?

Holly: You can go to my website, which is mylittlebrickschoolhouse.com, but I’m also in various places, if you go to blueskydaisies.net, that website has wonderful just visuals of the different books that they’ve published, and I’m on there now, but they have, if you’re familiar with Cindy Rollins, and then there’s a Charlotte Mason biography that Linnea Gore and Twyla Farmer wrote and illustrated together, and they’re just wonderful– It’s a good website. I would go there, and then I’m on all the little social media outlets, like Facebook and Instagram under My Little Brick Schoolhouse.

If you want to join my private Facebook group, it’s Read with My Little Brick Schoolhouse, [crosstalk] and I would love to see.

Amy: Oh, yes, and I will make sure to have all of the links to those places in the show notes for this episode, and I actually have interviewed Amy from Blue Sky Daisies before. I’ve interviewed Cindy Rollins. I interviewed Linnea and Twyla as well, so I will put those links in the show notes for listeners if you want to hear more good stuff about the books from Blue Sky Daisies. If I can just ask also our listeners today, if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend, share it with a friend who loves beautiful stories, who loves G.K. Chesterton, and take a minute to leave a rating and review for Homeschool Conversations with Humility and Doxology in your podcast app. It really does help other homeschool parents find the podcast, and it means a lot to me as well. I will have all the show notes for this episode at Humilityanddoxology.com.

Holly, I am so excited for you. Congratulations. I have just loved being with you over the past few years as you’ve worked on this project. I know it is going to be such a beautiful gift to many families. Thanks for coming on today. It was great.

Holly: Oh, Amy, thank you so much for this opportunity, and thank you for being a friend for the past few years. You’ve seen me through a lot of times, and I value our friendship.

Amy: Until next time, everyone happy homeschooling.

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